Maps 4 Neighborhoods

[bchris02]

This is why to pass, it would need to be at least 50% neighborhood improvements but also 50% big projects. People who live at NW 192nd and Meridian aren't going to care about sidewalks and streetlights at 23rd and Walker. To bring them on board, there has to be something for them. Since it would be impossible for something like this to touch every neighborhood in OKC, the only way to bring suburbia on board is with large projects that will benefit them. Otherwise, a bond package would probably be a better way to go for improvements in the urban core.

[mkjeeves]

This is why to pass, it would need to be at least 50% neighborhood improvements but also 50% big projects. People who live at NW 192nd and Meridian aren't going to care about sidewalks and streetlights at 23rd and Walker. To bring them on board, there has to be something for them. Since it would be impossible for something like this to touch every neighborhood in OKC, the only way to bring suburbia on board is with large projects that will benefit them. Otherwise, a bond package would probably be a better way to go for improvements in the urban core.

Meh. I voted for all the previous MAPS because it was good for the city. There's not many of those improvements that I frequent, especially not the the big ticket ones. (Although I have benefited directly from some.)

[Just the facts]

If I listened to their idea correctly, they want to bring sidewalks to NW 192 and Meridian. They want to urbanize the suburbs. Initially by 'neighborhood' I thought they meant the existing urban clusters of Paseo, Plaza, Capitol Hill, ...etc - but that isn't what they said.

[bchris02]

If I listened to their idea correctly, they want to bring sidewalks to NW 192 and Meridian. They want to urbanize the suburbs. Initially by 'neighborhood' I thought they meant the existing urban clusters of Paseo, Plaza, Capitol Hill, ...etc - but that isn't what they said.

Yeah if that is what they want to do I am not sure I support it. I think all that is needed in the outer suburbs is to require sidewalk construction with future road expansion. A lot of other cities do this and it works well with sidewalks gradually filling in as roads are replaced/resurfaced. Retrofitting the outer burbs with sidewalks that won't be used is a waste of resources when so many neighborhoods in the urban core, that would otherwise be walkable, still don't have them.

[mkjeeves]

Almost all funding for MAPS comes from the neighborhoods not in the inner core. I'm not interested in sending any more of it to the inner core until a plan similar to the above is put in place and under way. No plan. No more money. Simple.

[Just the facts]

Going back to a point I brought up in another thread, we can't just increase walkable density willy nilly or because we want to. It has to be planned so that it grows effectively and sustainably - two criteria that haven't been required recently because technology and money are used to overcome poor planning. The City needs to come up with an urbanization plan that starts with building out the rural to urban transect based on the 5 minute pedestrian shed. If we don't start with a foundation where else is there to start?

[gopokes88]

If the goal for Maps 5 is get RTA, better make sure Maps 4 passes.

Maps 4 will probably shape up like this.

Lots of sidewalks, bike lanes, bike trails.
Bricktown canal expansion towards the west.
District entrances/exits
More sidewalks
Street car expansion all the way up classen ending at the classen triangle.

[Laramie]

Well, MAPS should be used to prepare the city for the future, for how we want it to be in 30 years. But it also has to take into account the realities of today. The best plan in the world doesn't do anything for us if it doesn't pass.

Ideally MAPS would benefit the people in OKC today, because that's who lives here right now, and also transform the city so that it is greatly improved for tomorrow.

Agree,

However, anytime you talk about a 15-30 year plan; many of the informed posters on this board have ADA and get turned off; just think what its like for the average voter.

Don't know if a shorter 4 year collection cycle would work. We need to at least look ahead with 7 - 10 year plans.

[GaryOKC6]

Several things come to mind here. There has to be a change in the mentality first. People have to want to get out. There is a lot of assumption that people want to ride their bikes for example. secondly the neighborhoods have to want to be revitalized. Throwing money at problems wont help. Who will decide which neighborhoods get the money? I like the trail idea. Me personally I am a big fan of the trails. I also think that the density idea in the urban core idea is something that has come from the people who are moving her for the most part. They are hoping that throwing money at a troubled area will help. Not so sure I am on board with that idea. Lastly, they don't really have a plan. seem to be all over the place. Just my observation.

[Teo9969]

Almost all funding for MAPS comes from the neighborhoods not in the inner core. I'm not interested in sending any more of it to the inner core until a plan similar to the above is put in place and under way. No plan. No more money. Simple.

Almost all…Unless you're talking about downtown and not the inner core, this is silly. Penn Square Mall can be reasonably argued to be part of the "inner core".

If you really think that the Kilpatrick Turnpike, I-240, and NW Expressway corridors are bringing in 90% of the sales-tax revenue in this city, you're sorely mistaken.

And as we've gone over a million times: An arena, a park, a baseball stadium, etc. are not investments in the inner core…they're investments in Oklahoma City at large. They're located in the inner core because that's geographically central. You can't put the Ford Center at Memorial and MacArthur because that's unfair for the people at Air Depot and SE 119th who are also paying for the arena. An Arena downtown *is* an investment in NW OKC…and SW OKC, and NE OKC, and SE OKC.

[Teo9969]

If the goal for Maps 5 is get RTA, better make sure Maps 4 passes.

Maps 4 will probably shape up like this.

Lots of sidewalks, bike lanes, bike trails.
Bricktown canal expansion towards the west.
District entrances/exits
More sidewalks
Street car expansion all the way up classen ending at the classen triangle.

That streetcar expansion alone is about the size of the entire MAPS-3 Budget.

[BoulderSooner]

That streetcar expansion alone is about the size of the entire MAPS-3 Budget.

This is not close to true. That route is less than 4.5 miles 1 way. So it is less than 9 miles of track.

We are talking somewhere between 200-270 million dollars. Total. In 2015 dollars

[Teo9969]

Maybe I'm reading the Central OK-GO Summary incorrectly.

It says "Street car": $610-$830M for the N2 route which is the one they selected. Is that if they were going to run the street car all the way up to Edmond?

[mkjeeves]

Almost all…Unless you're talking about downtown and not the inner core, this is silly. Penn Square Mall can be reasonably argued to be part of the "inner core".

Include it. Now count the people who live in downtown/inner core/however you want to consider it, and compare that to the total population. One thread put it at around 25,000 people living downtown. Since there's comparatively little retail downtown/ inner core, they shop elsewhere. Thus, like I said, almost all funding for MAPS comes from the neighborhoods and adjoining retail. It comes from the people who live there and what is collected on what they spend in businesses not downtown or in the inner core.

If you really think that the Kilpatrick Turnpike, I-240, and NW Expressway corridors are bringing in 90% of the sales-tax revenue in this city, you're sorely mistaken.

And the many restaurants, walmarts, grocery stores, auto parts, big box retailers, convenience stores, furniture stores, located throughout the metro, I-40, including MacArthur to Council and beyond, Memorial Rd., and on and on and on.

And as we've gone over a million times: An arena, a park, a baseball stadium, etc. are not investments in the inner core…they're investments in Oklahoma City at large. They're located in the inner core because that's geographically central. You can't put the Ford Center at Memorial and MacArthur because that's unfair for the people at Air Depot and SE 119th who are also paying for the arena. An Arena downtown *is* an investment in NW OKC…and SW OKC, and NE OKC, and SE OKC.

Agreed. And we don't need any more of any projects like that anywhere, including downtown. We need investment in the rest of OKC because it's good for all of OKC.

Lets recap.

Most of the jobs aren't downtown and never will be.

Most of the people don't live downtown and never will.

Most of the money generated for taxes for Maps and city funding in general doesn't come directly or indirectly from downtown.

We all love downtown. Most of us voted for all the MAPS projects to be built downtown and that's a good thing. I'm proud of what we did. It helps attract tourism, businesses and people.

It's time to work on the rest of the city.

[Just the facts]

If we tried to spread $500 million across 650 sq. miles no one would even notice.

[Teo9969]

Include it. Now count the people who live in downtown/inner core/however you want to consider it, and compare that to the total population. One thread put it at around 25,000 people living downtown. Since there's comparatively little retail downtown/ inner core, they shop elsewhere. Thus, like I said, almost all funding for MAPS comes from the neighborhoods and adjoining retail. It comes from the people who live there and what is collected on what they spend in businesses not downtown or in the inner core.



And the many restaurants, walmarts, grocery stores, auto parts, big box retailers, convenience stores, furniture stores, located throughout the metro, I-40, including MacArthur to Council and beyond, Memorial Rd., and on and on and on.



Agreed. And we don't need any more of any projects like that anywhere, including downtown. We need investment in the rest of OKC because it's good for all of OKC.

Lets recap.

Most of the jobs aren't downtown and never will be.

Most of the people don't live downtown and never will.

Most of the money generated for taxes for Maps and city funding in general doesn't come directly or indirectly from downtown.

We all love downtown. Most of us voted for all the MAPS projects to be built downtown and that's a good thing. I'm proud of what we did. It helps attract tourism, businesses and people.

It's time to work on the rest of the city.

In this post, we move the goal posts from "inner core" to "downtown".

There are a lot more than 25,000 people living in the area bordered by 44/235/40. And there is a lot of business in that area, and a lot more density which means that to make up for that area elsewhere in the city.

At this point in OKC's history, the majority of the money that this city spends, needs to occur within the Grand Boulevard loop (The real "Inner Core"). It's the best use of public dollars, and it's the only way this city is ever going to grow in a sustainable, respectable manner. We can do some things to maybe make sure that Memorial and NW Expressway don't go the way of 39th…but that alone is going to take a monumental effort.

[gopokes88]

If we tried to spread $500 million across 650 sq. miles no one would even notice.

Thanks Eyeore. Great contribution.

[bchris02]

I think the MAPS model would be great for expanding the streetcar and building a commuter rail system. It would also be good for a city-wide trail system connecting neighborhoods and parks, which is something I think is badly needed in OKC.

In terms of other infrastructure improvements, I think a bond package is probably the best way to go about it and not a MAPS package. The first reason is it would be difficult to bring the entire city on board for things like sidewalks and beautification in the urban core since most OKC residents don't live in the urban core. These improvements are beyond necessary though and its important that the city find a way to make it happen. The second reason is the city limits are so vast that if you tried to invest in all neighborhoods, it would be virtually impossible to do so and have any kind of impact at all.

[gopokes88]

In this post, we move the goal posts from "inner core" to "downtown".

There are a lot more than 25,000 people living in the area bordered by 44/235/40. And there is a lot of business in that area, and a lot more density which means that to make up for that area elsewhere in the city.

At this point in OKC's history, the majority of the money that this city spends, needs to occur within the Grand Boulevard loop (The real "Inner Core"). It's the best use of public dollars, and it's the only way this city is ever going to grow in a sustainable, respectable manner. We can do some things to maybe make sure that Memorial and NW Expressway don't go the way of 39th…but that alone is going to take a monumental effort.

I don't disagree with the investing in the inner core one bit and agree with it.

I vehemently disagree with the group think on this board that nw expressway and memorial are going to go south.
First not everyone wants to live in the urban core. There is a ton of people who prefer the semi suburb life. Quick access to the core without some of the cores problems.

Second there is a ton of businesses along memorial and nw expressway that employ a lot of people. Good jobs too. There is something very appealing about a 10 min drive to work while also having quick access to anywhere else in the city because of the nearby freeways. A good chunk of the people this city love private schools so the district doesn't even matter as much. For those that don't Pc north and Edmond schools are good plus charter schools are an option.

[mkjeeves]

In this post, we move the goal posts from "inner core" to "downtown".

The first sentence of what you responded to: "Include it. Now count the people who live in downtown/inner core/however you want to consider it, and compare that to the total population. "

There are a lot more than 25,000 people living in the area bordered by 44/235/40. And there is a lot of business in that area, and a lot more density which means that to make up for that area elsewhere in the city.

At this point in OKC's history, the majority of the money that this city spends, needs to occur within the Grand Boulevard loop (The real "Inner Core"). It's the best use of public dollars, and it's the only way this city is ever going to grow in a sustainable, respectable manner. We can do some things to maybe make sure that Memorial and NW Expressway don't go the way of 39th…but that alone is going to take a monumental effort.

If that's your boundary, whatever the name, substitute it and my statements still hold true.

[bchris02]

MKJeeves,

I don't dispute that the Memorial corridor is important to the city because it is. My question is what improvements are needed up there that would be necessitate a MAPS package focused on that area?

[mkjeeves]

If we tried to spread $500 million across 650 sq. miles no one would even notice.

No plan for the neighborhoods is indeed a plan. I know that's your plan. Take their money until it runs dry, build what you want and tell them tough.

It's going to take more than that to get any more MAPs votes from me.

[OSUFan]

No plan for the neighborhoods is indeed a plan. I know that's your plan. Take their money until it runs dry, build what you want and tell them tough.

It's going to take more than that to get any more MAPs votes from me.

What specific needs would you like to see addressed in the next MAPs proposal?

[Filthy]

I don't disagree with the investing in the inner core one bit and agree with it.

I vehemently disagree with the group think on this board that nw expressway and memorial are going to go south.

NW Expressway is already on its way. I don't see the decline for Memorial coming for a good while...if at all.

For those that don't Pc north and Edmond schools are good plus charter schools are an option.

PC North is literally a sh*t show, compared to what it was even 10 years ago. The PC district as a whole is deteriorating at an alarming rate.

Edmond schools have also started this decline. They are probably 8-10 years away from PC Schools, in their rate of decline.

[mkjeeves]

What specific needs would you like to see addressed in the next MAPs proposal?

Cart before the horse. We need the vision first and then if tax and spend would help, decide what and how. Some people are talking about the vision for better neighborhoods and that's a good start.