OG&E Energy Center

[Pete]

One of the big reasons Clayco gave for needing the TIF was that they were planning to build the office tower on top of the parking garage and that was a more expensive proposition than what 499 is doing.

However, they have since changed their plans and only a tiny bit of the parking will be under the office tower.

So, their case is weaker than ever. My understanding is that the powers that be with OCURA and the Alliance don't feel they should get any TIF.

[dcsooner]

Many of you people continue to place faith in grandiose plans for DT OKC development (Towers). I was skeptical from the beginning and was thoroughly derided , but, I know OKC, nothing ever happens as planned. I celebrate when the building is open.

[Spartan]

499 Sheridan did not ask for any subsidy, TIF or otherwise.

Even the sharply revised ask by Clayco was unrealistic because they were still asking for far more than anyone had ever been granted, both in terms of percentage and dollar amount.

Their original proposal was absurd.

You're just repeating yourself and not responding to anything I said. 499 is not a comparable project. I wish we could give them TIF and marginally elevate the quality of that gruesome project. Have you seen those bare bones garages for which they want Walker widened?? Devon Tower isn't even...oh wait except how much TIF did that get? :/

What was absurd? Help us pay for public improvements like PARKING and we will build towers? Help me understand where that is absurd and if so what you said about it when it was unfolding and while Stage Center was still standing. We are on the highway, too late to turn around now. The city needs to figure out what is happening and what its strategy is or people need to be fired for this. This is amateur hour.

Do we ONLY use TIF for strip malls now? I'm confused. Do people want to preserve Lake Lackmeyer? Might as well bc we have preserved very little in the downtown core.

[Pete]

I meant their $128 million original TIF request was absurd.

TIF is supposed to be used for blighted properties in struggling areas or those that have unique challenges, like historic renovation or site problems. Not brand new construction on a clear rectangular lot bordering a public park where the public has already invested tens of millions.

And basically, those are the the guidelines pretty much being followed by the people administering the TIF program.

[jccouger]

Many of you people continue to place faith in grandiose plans for DT OKC development (Towers). I was skeptical from the beginning and was thoroughly derided , but, I know OKC, nothing ever happens as planned. I celebrate when the building is open.

There have been plenty of people, even before Stage Center was demolished, who voiced concern that nothing would ever be done on the block. Not for a single moment have I ever believed all 4 towers would be built, and I've strongly voiced my opinion that I never even thought ANY would be built.

Do we ONLY use TIF for strip malls now? I'm confused. Do people want to preserve Lake Lackmeyer? Might as well bc we have preserved very little in the downtown core.

LOL, that is hilarious & so true. So much propaganda pushed forth by him to get the Stage Center torn down.

[LakeEffect]

LOL, that is hilarious & so true. So much propaganda pushed forth by him to get the Stage Center torn down.

Propaganda pushed forth by whom?

[2Lanez]

Do people want to preserve Lake Lackmeyer?

We could add water ramps and a zip line. Maybe this was the project to make KC and Dallas jealous?

[Spartan]

To be fair I am sure Steve would leave before being forced to write propaganda, but the story is largely driven by the city council and those who wield influence locally. All Steve can do is ask questions of those in charge.

I meant their $128 million original TIF request was absurd.

TIF is supposed to be used for blighted properties in struggling areas or those that have unique challenges, like historic renovation or site problems. Not brand new construction on a clear rectangular lot bordering a public park where the public has already invested tens of millions.

And basically, those are the the guidelines pretty much being followed by the people administering the TIF program.

What about the unique costs of high rise development?

[Pete]

Again, 499 Sheridan and Devon Tower didn't require TIF money to be built.

[HOT ROD]

neither Devon nor 499 proposed underground parking with tower above, along with street level retail massing either.

[Pete]

neither Devon nor 499 proposed underground parking with tower above, along with street level retail massing either.

There is one level of below-grade parking for this project and the tower will not be built above any appreciable amount of parking,

Also, both Devon and 499 have a similar amount of retail/restaurant space.

[shawnw]

Are you counting Nebu/Aravalli/Vast? Or are you strictly counting the faux retail boxes? Or both?

[Pete]

Nebu and Aravalli alone will be bigger than the space proposed for this project, and that doesn't include two floors of Vast, the huge public atrium and the future retail spots on Hudson.

[Spartan]

I

Again, 499 Sheridan and Devon Tower didn't require TIF money to be built.

Okay great. Please explain how that's relevant. That's an oil tower. This is a mixed-use tower. Why can't you see past Devon? And that you're propping Nebu (a corporate benefit cafe) and the "future retail spots on Hudson" (LMAO) as a mixed-use component to support this argument is absurd. Maybe because Walmart doesn't need TIF, we should do away with it altogether so that all developments may aspire to the same quality of Walmart or 499.

This whole thing is absurd and shows a complete disregard for two things; 1) getting the job done after we already tore down Stage Center, and 2) perspective for how mixed-use high-rise development really works. To the second point, with this perspective, we just won't ever have any of that, so I guess that kind of solves that problem.

By the way, you will lose credibility if you don't support execution of the developments you previously push. The demo of a modernist landmark was promoted ad nauseum by a deep well of well-connected interests that surely didn't just want a lake there, right?

Get real here, please.

[Pete]

I

Okay great. Please explain how that's relevant. That's an oil tower.

You keep changing your argument. First you just talk about high rises once that is blown up you move on to something else.

Now, i will point out that 499 is not an "oil tower" and you'll choose another bombastic retort. 499 is nearly the exact same development as OG&E: Being built by a developer, with a large anchor tenant and a fair amount of spec space and lots of structured parking with similar amounts of retail / restaurant space. They are also on a very similar sized properties and almost exactly the same height.


I guarantee you that the people making decisions about TIF dollars are looking at these two projects as almost identical, directly across the street at almost exactly the same time, and challenging Clayco, "They didn't need subsidies to do their development so why do you?" I know this because I've talked the people running the TIF programs directly.

That's how it's relevant.

[Spartan]

Hines was brought in by Devon, that's different. I'm not changing my tune nor do I have anything less than the utmost respect for your posts. It's for that reason that I just want to set the record straight. OKC real estate remains the realm of corporate energy as the city refuses to support actual private developers. The collateral damage of this policy is that development activity will remain constrained and stymied.

That said, I know you got this directly from the city. It's their perspective that you're pushing, and I'm not rejecting you or them, but rather just trying to challenge the thinking to GET A DEAL DONE. I can't believe this isn't transpiring, despite the pessimists. Yes I hated to demo a landmark, but only because I'm really an optimist that knows OKC could be great if it got serious. We are not even close to serious about becoming a great city. We are an okay city that now has a downtown lake.

[Pete]

Remember, this was never a situation where a little TIF money would get this deal done. They want way, way more than they've ever given out before and it's brand new construction in one of the most primo and non-problematic sites in town.

There is simply no objective argument for giving them a bunch of free money, other than them holding the property hostage and claiming they can't get it done otherwise. That is no way to dispense tens of millions of tax dollars, which is why the TIF part has stalled.

Also, I don't think anyone is convinced this deal would go forward as presented even with decent TIF dollars.


I was told about Clayco being involved long before that was every made official and I was also told there were tremendous doubts about their ability to pull this off. I think that's just proving out.


BTW, where is Rainey Williams in all this? For the guy who bought the property and then put himself forth as the ostensible developer, he's been completely absent in any of these dealings for a very long time. If Clayco can't get the job done then it's his job to find someone who can.

Remember, the sale of the Stage Center to Williams was not a case of going to the highest bidder. The foundation used Mark Beffort to field proposals and purchase price was not at all the only criteria. They wanted someone who would develop the property in a responsible manner and that burden is still squarely on Rainey Williams as he's the one that made the promises to get this done and was awarded the right to buy based on promises he made.

[bchris02]

BTW, where is Rainey Williams in all this? For the guy who bought the property and then put himself forth as the ostensible developer, he's been completely absent in any of these dealings for a very long time. If Clayco can't get the job done then it's his job to find someone who can.

Remember, the sale of the Stage Center to Williams was not a case of going to the highest bidder. The foundation used Mark Beffort to field proposals and purchase price was not at all the only criteria. They wanted someone who would develop the property in a responsible manner and that burden is still squarely on Rainey Williams as he's the one that made the promises to get this done and was awarded the right to buy based on promises he made.

"As for those who question whether Rainey Williams is just a front, and question his capacity for doing this development, well, you don't know Rainey Williams."

[jccouger]

"As for those who question whether Rainey Williams is just a front, and question his capacity for doing this development, well, you don't know Rainey Williams."

This is part of the propaganda that Steve Lackmeyer is responsible for.

I can't believe there is hardly any outrage in this thread. I guess that is just the typical OKC attitude though. What will we let them tear down next with broken promises?

[TU 'cane]

This is part of the propaganda that Steve Lackmeyer is responsible for.

I can't believe there is hardly any outrage in this thread. I guess that is just the typical OKC attitude though. What will we let them tear down next with broken promises?

It's quickly building with each day this is set back. The past few pages is indicative that people are growing impatient.
I'll stand by in my sentiment that I, along with others, thought this project was more sure footed than 499 originally was, TIF or not. One example being how quikly SC was torn down and how we heard we were just waiting to hear back from the city. Of course, when I said that a few days ago it was challenged by a couple folks who then took the stance that this project was "never really" as serious as originally thought. Yea, sure.

Now, we're seeing dialogue that suggests this may be scrapped if no TIF is received, or at least scaled back so completely that we'll be right back where we were when the original proposal (wasn't a proposal, per se, as it was an "idea") showed a generic 12 story (I don't recall the exact floor count) glass building, and was met with public resistance.

-

This will be another fight it seems. God forbid we ask for quality projects in place of what was torn down. It's not much for us to ask and even demand respectable measures from developers and architects. This is "our" city, and we want what's best. So, again, I say that we're starting to see the tide rise now that the 499 fight is over. Just wait.

end rant, for now.

[Pete]

This has always been an OG&E project.

I knew OG&E was behind buying the property long before anything was announced, and from the best possible sources. I was very surprised when suddenly Rainey Williams was the guy but it made sense when you think about the difficulties of OG&E buying, demolishing Stage Center, then developing an elaborate corporate HQ while simultaneously operating a public utility and routinely seeking rate increases.

But no way Williams -- who has never built anything as far as I know -- was even close to equipped to pull off a development like this. So, they have been trying to figure out another way to get this deal done.

Lackmeyer recently mentioned that OG&E is now the party trying to negotiate a TIF. Not Clayco and not Rainey Williams. That should tell you all you need to know about the realities of this situation.

[Spartan]

This is part of the propaganda that Steve Lackmeyer is responsible for.

I can't believe there is hardly any outrage in this thread. I guess that is just the typical OKC attitude though. What will we let them tear down next with broken promises?

It's not just Lackmeyer, who merely serves an audience that goes to him for downtown development excitement. This forum also has a huge role. I am just trying to set the record straight.

If anything, Steve does a good job of portraying both sides without obfuscating the issue(s). Do ALL "insider" sources do the same, or are they occasionally beholden to their sources to spin the story in order to maintain that insider status? It's great we have insiders, but at the end of the day it's no different than any other source that must be weighed against others.

[LakeEffect]

This is part of the propaganda that Steve Lackmeyer is responsible for.

I can't believe there is hardly any outrage in this thread. I guess that is just the typical OKC attitude though. What will we let them tear down next with broken promises?

If you think Steve was a shill for the destruction of Stage Center, you're mistaken.

[LuccaBrasi]

As my memory recalls, OG&E was going to do a new building many moons ago, late 80's or early 90's possibly, don't recall, but it never materialized. I've seen the programming documents and renderings......no idea why it never happened. Clayco was in way over their head on the initial proposal for this development.

[OkiePoke]

With this rate increase, they better build something nice with my extra money.