OG&E Energy Center

[Pete]

Everyone should have known Clayco was very far from being able to pull this off when they came in with a ridiculous TIF request; way out of the ballpark.

Now my understanding is the City is willing to give them no TIF funds at all, mainly because virtually the same exactly project is being built across the street without pubic assistance.

Even when they cut their ask in half, they were still completely unrealistic.

I suspect an office building and parking garage will get built on the Stage Center site, but it will be scaled down from what was proposed.

[Rover]

Pete, with the new tower across the street, the completion of the Parkside building and the 20 story Dowell building being done, do you believe there is enough demand downtown at this time to start a new tower even with some reasonable TIF money? Same goes for apartments, high rise or not. There is a lot of inventory coming on market. Do you believe there is enough steam to actually get a quality development out of the ground in the foreseeable future? I suspect moving the CC there may be the best immediate option, but it also begs the question of how long before a quality development south of the Myriad Gardens can reasonably be expected.

[Of Sound Mind]

Peace out Rover - Yet another thread I can no longer post in.

Was that all it takes?

[taking notes for future threads]

[Pete]

Pete, with the new tower across the street, the completion of the Parkside building and the 20 story Dowell building being done, do you believe there is enough demand downtown at this time to start a new tower even with some reasonable TIF money? Same goes for apartments, high rise or not. There is a lot of inventory coming on market. Do you believe there is enough steam to actually get a quality development out of the ground in the foreseeable future? I suspect moving the CC there may be the best immediate option, but it also begs the question of how long before a quality development south of the Myriad Gardens can reasonably be expected.

Yes, I believe there is still plenty of demand.

The Parkside is not really even trying to lease their space, probably because of the desired sale by SandRidge. 499 will have little to no spec space between Devon and Bank of Oklahoma. Dowell Center will be aimed at a lower price point (won't be Class A space) and smaller tenants. First National will have little to no office space and is still driving tenants out.

The only real variable is SandRidge Tower.

But in general, there is no decent chunks of Class A office space downtown and there seems to be plenty of demand. It's just that spec office buildings are very hard to finance right now, where there seems to be plenty of money for apartments and hotels.

[gopokes88]

Everyone should have known Clayco was very far from being able to pull this off when they came in with a ridiculous TIF request; way out of the ballpark.

Now my understanding is the City is willing to give them no TIF funds at all, mainly because virtually the same exactly project is being built across the street without pubic assistance.

Even when they cut their ask in half, they were still completely unrealistic.

I suspect an office building and parking garage will get built on the Stage Center site, but it will be scaled down from what was proposed.

That sucks. I was all for a good TIF (not the crazy ask) to get a high rise condo development done. Someone has to break the seal for that. Even a little for the office tower because it was a great design, but they did over ask.

[Pete]

The way this has been handled by Clayco should tell you a lot about their capabilities.

They a builder, not a developer. Completely different skill sets.

[GoldFire]

So are we now expecting the original proposal to be back on the table or will a completely new proposal be put together?

[Pete]

The first rendering was never a proposal, just a concept.

I honestly don't know what is going to happen. Not even sure Clayco will be involved.

[Rover]

Yes, I believe there is still plenty of demand.

The Parkside is not really even trying to lease their space, probably because of the desired sale by SandRidge. 499 will have little to no spec space between Devon and Bank of Oklahoma. Dowell Center will be aimed at a lower price point (won't be Class A space) and smaller tenants. First National will have little to no office space and is still driving tenants out.

The only real variable is SandRidge Tower.

But in general, there is no decent chunks of Class A office space downtown and there seems to be plenty of demand. It's just that spec office buildings are very hard to finance right now, where there seems to be plenty of money for apartments and hotels.

Right now certain financial institutions that have bankrolled energy firms have curtailed commercial lending due to the shrinking of the collateral that has been proven reserves. In some cases this has resulted in them having to bolster their reserves/equity. The falling dominoes land on large real estate development loans for projects that aren't significantly pre-sold and ones that rely on leases in unproven markets. Spec office building is hard to finance right now. Much tighter than even 6 months ago.

[soonerwilliam]

Does anyone know how many feet tall the original plan for the OG&E Tower was going to be?

[HOT ROD]

Everyone should have known Clayco was very far from being able to pull this off when they came in with a ridiculous TIF request; way out of the ballpark.

Now my understanding is the City is willing to give them no TIF funds at all, mainly because virtually the same exactly project is being built across the street without pubic assistance.

Even when they cut their ask in half, they were still completely unrealistic.

I suspect an office building and parking garage will get built on the Stage Center site, but it will be scaled down from what was proposed.

Pete, I disagree with the bolded part of your statement. 499 is a tower with two massive parking garages whereas OGE was proposed as two towers, one office and one residential above parking, on each parcel - plus maybe a hotel. 499 is better with its height but laughable given you wont be able to see the tower until you're 6 blocks away due to the garages. OGE is better due to the quality of the architecture and at least an attempt to bury the parking and have quality retail fronting the streets; iMO that should set the two projects different and IS a reason for OGE/Stage Center to get some TIF.

Now, should Clayco get their original full or the now half of their asking amount - NO, but there should be some point where the city should allow it in order to get that quality development that completely rebuilds the retail landscape (hence tax district) for the central business district. OGE will completely expand the CBD and immediately enhance it with Highrise residential, street retail, and underground parking; while 499 is just another but completely lesser Devon complex to which Devon should have built their tower originally as planned. Again, my opinion.

[soonerguru]

Can we rebuild Stage Center?

[G.Walker]

Wow, so they present grand plans to the City council, which in return got the Stage Center demolished, and now they can even go through with the plans! If nothing significant will be built on this site, this would be a total loss! That's why I really don't follow OKC development that much anymore, getting to be a total joke.

[Pete]

Wow, so they present grand plans to the City council, which in return got the Stage Center demolished, and now they can even go through with the plans! If nothing significant will be built on this site, this would be a total loss! That's why I really don't follow OKC development that much anymore, getting to be a total joke.

The 'grand plans' were only submitted after Stage Center had been completely demolished.

[bchris02]

I had a feeling the original four-tower proposal was a little too good to be true, but it's hard to believe they may not even be able to come through on at least one office tower. Hopefully this gets a conversation going at city hall about better accountability when it comes to demolitions. Best case scenario for OKC long-term is if OG&E ends up in the Sandridge Tower. Then there could be a proposal for mid-rise luxury condos fronting the park on the Stage Center site. Something on the level of River Market Tower in Little Rock would be realistic for OKC.



It really sucks that the Clayco proposal for the OG&E tower likely won't happen. I was really looking forward to the tower and the impact it was going to have on the skyline. The city could end up in a better position though down the line because Kerry is right; residential needs to front the park.

Regardless of what happens, its in the city's best interest that this property not sit empty.

[Just the facts]

I will laugh my *** off if the whole west and south side of the park becomes a convention center and parking garage.

[SouthsideSooner]

I will laugh my *** off if the whole west and south side of the park becomes a convention center and parking garage.

I'd laugh my *** off if the whole west and south side of the park became housing for the very affluent, made possible with huge tax incentives coming at the expense of people that can't afford to live there...

[G.Walker]

The 'grand plans' were only submitted after Stage Center had been completely demolished.

That's even worse...

[Just the facts]

I'd laugh my *** off if the whole west and south side of the park became housing for the very affluent, made possible with huge tax incentives coming at the expense of people that can't afford to live there...

Has anyone proposed anything close to that?

[SouthsideSooner]

Has anyone proposed anything close to that?

Yes... You. You've mentioned several times that the park should be surrounded by housing and you know full well that it could never happen without huge TIF dollars and rents or prices that very few could afford...

[PhiAlpha]

Best case scenario for OKC long-term is if OG&E ends up in the Sandridge Tower.

How the hell does the best case for OKC involve a downtown anchor going out of business, 600 people losing their jobs, and an entire office tower being vacated because of it?

[Spartan]

Steve had these comments in his chat yesterday...

"Steve Lackmeyer
‎11‎:‎12‎:‎35‎ ‎AM
When this project began, Rainey Williams Jr. came in with a respectable track record at BOK Plaza and other real estate ventures and OGE Energy Corp seemed like a strong enough anchor to make this project a go. But reaction to the initial development, a mid-rise building, was far from enthusiastic. So Williams then teamed up with Clayco, which proposed a far more impressive development with four towers, 25- and 26-stories each with a mix of offices, housing and retail. But with that came the tax increment financing proposal which was met with a lot of push back at City Hall. Clayco is not at the negotiating table and it doesn't appear as if much progress is being made between the city and OGE Energy Corp., which took over Clayco's role in the discussions."

"Here's my honest thought at this moment: I really wonder if the city shouldn't try to buy the Stage Center site and make it the location for the new convention center."

OKC Central Chat transcript, Aug. 7, 2015 | News OK

Here's my problem with this: NOBODY besides Lackmeyer called his track record respectable. He previously did a Class B office project and gave it a new plaza. Wow, we all conceded that. Yet everyone on here called out his minimal experience with actual design-build development.

We tore down Stage Center anyway. As for Clayco, they usually get TIF and why should they build a spec project in one of the few markets that won't give them TIF?? This is insane. Why won't we give them TIF? The Devon project across the street is an example of how TIF could help elevate design standards. Devon is responding to pressure from a variety of fronts by ensuring the 499 project is bare bones to the max.

The city needs to pull its head out and figure out what it's doing here ASAP. We have no vision because we don't plan.

[Spartan]

Everyone should have known Clayco was very far from being able to pull this off when they came in with a ridiculous TIF request; way out of the ballpark.

Now my understanding is the City is willing to give them no TIF funds at all, mainly because virtually the same exactly project is being built across the street without pubic assistance.

Even when they cut their ask in half, they were still completely unrealistic.

I suspect an office building and parking garage will get built on the Stage Center site, but it will be scaled down from what was proposed.

How is their half-scaled bargain request "still completely unrealistic"? Have we gotten away with LESS subsidy on other high-rise projects? I'm only aware of Devon Tower and they needed all the surrounding streets and public spaces brought up along w their project. With TIF. A lot of it.

[Pete]

499 Sheridan did not ask for any subsidy, TIF or otherwise.

Even the sharply revised ask by Clayco was unrealistic because they were still asking for far more than anyone had ever been granted, both in terms of percentage and dollar amount.

Their original proposal was absurd.

[gopokes88]

499 Sheridan did not ask for any subsidy, TIF or otherwise.

Even the sharply revised ask by Clayco was unrealistic because they were still asking for far more than anyone had ever been granted, both in terms of percentage and dollar amount.

Their original proposal was absurd.

Sometimes stepping away from the table can be beneficial for both parties.
Clayco might reduce their ask again, and pressure will build on the city to get at least something other then a generic office tower built. The 4 towers proposal generated a lot of "I'm still sad about SC but at least we're getting a world class project out of it." That could and probably will turn into, "Since you demo'ed SC you better replace it with something better then an office tower."