Union Bus Station

[HangryHippo]

You're correct, it was the absolute least they could do and they did it. Which is what makes this whole development disappointing and underwhelming.

This.

[rezman]

J

This sign is going to be restored and placed at this same corner within the parking garage.

I know what they're doing with the sign. That's not my question. I wonder why the sign couldn't have been moved to a place like MCR, that is transportation related and has many other vintage roadside signs and displays from around the city and state. That way it's off the corner where many don't want it anyway, and put in a place where many others can still see it and appreciate it if they want to.

I love old signs, gas station "petrolania", etc. I have that stuff all over my garage. It just seems to me that the old sign would be out of place behind glass on a parking garage/office building that has no relation to the old bus station other than being on the same corner.

[gopokes88]

I think it's a pretty homage to what was there.

And no its not the least they could, they could have done nothing. Once this gets built and alters the skyline, or the first cutaway shot in a playoff game that you can see the cranes, opinions might change pretty quick.

[ChrisHayes]

I think it's a pretty homage to what was there.

And no its not the least they could, they could have done nothing. Once this gets built and alters the skyline, or the first cutaway shot in a playoff game that you can see the cranes, opinions might change pretty quick.

I've been wondering what some people will think when the building starts to take shape and big sky cranes go up, and then what everyone will think when it's complete and you see a brand new, 27 story tower as part of the skyline.

[turnpup]

^^^^^

I know, for me, I'll be happy to see the growth, and excited about future development to the west as a likely result of that growth, but will always shake my head and wish they could've incorporated (at least) some of the existing historic infrastructure into the new stuff.

[BDP]

I've been wondering what some people will think when the building starts to take shape and big sky cranes go up, and then what everyone will think when it's complete and you see a brand new, 27 story tower as part of the skyline.

I think I'll mostly be thinking about how much more the skyline AND the actual environment could have been improved in this part of downtown. As it is, this will mostly be low rise structured parking. The net result is that the skyline is actually being limited to one high rise building on this block. For one of the most valuable blocks in the city, that's actually not that impressive, even for the "anything for better postcards and NBA TV bumpers" crowd.

[Bellaboo]

What's going to be impressive is having 3 fairly tall buildings in a row on Hudson all at the same time under construction with cranes on top. With 499 being the tallest, it might as well start first.

[BDP]

What's going to be impressive is having 3 fairly tall buildings in a row on Hudson all at the same time under construction with cranes on top. With 499 being the tallest, it might as well start first.

Ooo, cranes. Neat.

[gopokes88]

Ooo, cranes. Neat.

Perception is reality. The perception to the country on a NBA broadcast is, Oklahoma is growing enough to have a sky crane downtown. Outside of this board knowledge about Union Bus Station is fairly low.

You can be super upset about how it all went down but excited to see a large crane and new tower.

Kinda like how I can be a republican and think Trump is one of the worst presidential candidates to ever run.

[baralheia]

I forgot to post this when I took it... it's not a great picture, but just for posterity's sake, here's a picture of the bus station I took on July 22, before demolition had begun:

[Bellaboo]

Ooo, cranes. Neat.

How about a little progress. Until Devon was built it'd been since 1985 when LS was built with nothing built over 15 floors (hotel) for over 25 years. And the reference was to 3 high rise structures not just one.

[zookeeper]

Perception is reality. The perception to the country on a NBA broadcast is, Oklahoma is growing enough to have a sky crane downtown. Outside of this board knowledge about Union Bus Station is fairly low.

You can be super upset about how it all went down but excited to see a large crane and new tower.

Kinda like how I can be a republican and think Trump is one of the worst presidential candidates to ever run.

Among the younger set, you are most certainly right. Aren't you the fairly recent transplant who said you moved here because of the Thunder?

[Bellaboo]

Among the younger set, you are most certainly right. Aren't you the fairly recent transplant who said you moved here because of the Thunder?

I'm 62 and I pretty much agree a lot of folks out there don't know much about the bus station, other than the fact it always had a bad stigma due to the clientele that hung out on a regular basis there. It was always a place where the pimps were known to frequent.
Now if it would have become another Republic GastroPub, then it's image would have changed.

[zookeeper]

I'm 62 and I pretty much agree a lot of folks out there don't know much about the bus station, other than the fact it always had a bad stigma due to the clientele that hung out on a regular basis there. It was always a place where the pimps were known to frequent.
Now if would have become another Republic GastroPub, then it's image would have changed.

Touché. You are probably right.

[gopokes88]

Among the younger set, you are most certainly right. Aren't you the fairly recent transplant who said you moved here because of the Thunder?

Yeah. I went to Oklahoma state and was plotting my next move. Picked okc because I had friends moving here, the economy is great, and the thunder were something that everyone in okc seemed to follow and love. Gave the city something to bond over.

Started wearing a thunder polo whenever I traveled and you wouldn't believe the reactions I got. Around the country okc has a very positive perception and it's mostly due the spotlight the thunder brings. The sky crane next spring will help with positive perception that during NBA cutaways with 15-20 million people watching.

Edit: I get that's not an amazing reason to move somewhere but I love sports and didn't want to live somewhere the size of Dallas.

[Just the facts]

The NBA does not use live, or even current, video for their cutaways. They have been showing the same 2 people walking down the canal for 3 years.

[sooner88]

The NBA does not use live, or even current, video for their cutaways. They have been showing the same 2 people walking down the canal for 3 years.

Maybe not for most regular season games, but they do in playoffs.

[Bellaboo]

The NBA does not use live, or even current, video for their cutaways. They have been showing the same 2 people walking down the canal for 3 years.

Playoffs are different than the standard shots, it also depends on which network is carrying the game.... TNT, ABC or ESPN.

[BDP]

Perception is reality.

Huh?

Well, a shiny new box that looks good from I-40 and crappy from 30 feet isn't going to change Oklahoma City's image or people's perception of it on TV much. You know, the Devon tower really isn't the reason for changing perceptions, either. That's evident by all the good press we've been reading for the last few years which tend to focus on the more unexpected parts of OKC that have popped up. I don't think anyone is surprised to find a few tall buildings in Oklahoma City. Everyone's got em. What I think more and more people are surprised to find is a cluster a varied neighborhoods with unique character and vibrant street life. The areas that get mentioned again and again are the ones that used revitalization and re-purposing to create a place in which people actually want to spend time. The developer even used them in promotional pieces for THIS development. (Though I do appreciate the irony)

I guess it doesn't hurt to have projects that stress vanity over integration from time to time to satisfy the drive bys, but it certainly could have been done without another loss of most of a downtown city block to parking, I'm not even sure how much more density we really net out of this one. This really just stacked and repackaged what was there. There will be a higher density of cars on the block though. I'm just saying that IF the best part of this is another sliver in the sky line for a handful of establishing shots during the NBA playoffs or a couple of cranes for a couple of years, then it's worse than I thought. It was a lot to trash just for that.

[Just the facts]

Well said BDP. In all of these threads I keep mentally coming back to the same quote from Enrique Penalosa.

"I'm often asked to talk people in cities about transport. I say, I cannot talk about transport unless we have an idea of what type of a city we want. Before we have a vision of what type of city we want, we have to know, how do we want to live. Because really, a city is only a means to a way of life. So actually, whenever we start talking about transport, we really end up discussing how we want to organize our daily life."

While this particular quote is about transportation, it could just as easily apply to any civic subject.

"I'm often asked to talk people in cities about downtowns. I say, I cannot talk about downtown unless we have an idea of what type of a city we want. Before we have a vision of what type of city we want, we have to know, how do we want to live. Because really, a city is only a means to a way of life. So actually, whenever we start talking about downtown, we really end up discussing how we want to organize our daily life."

Too many people in OKC are still searching for validation from people they don't even know. OKC might never get over that.

[BDP]

Too many people in OKC are still searching for validation from people they don't even know. OKC might never get over that.

Possibly. But if that's the case, then I don't get support for this project and the demolitions. You would think more people would be against this type of development, then. If it's validation from the outside people are looking for, then converting the majority of a block from old buildings to parking garages isn't really a step in the right direction. No one, and I mean no one, is going to come to OKC and say to the folks back home, "hey you gotta check out that town. They got whole blocks almost entirely dedicated to parking!".

Now, even in context of skyline vanity and how clusters of tall buildings can portray an image of significance, this project doesn't do that much in terms of gaining validation. The scale or design just isn't there to make much of an image impact and it effectively prevents any more height being added to the block. IMO, 499 isn't an ugly building as rendered (though the garages don't look very exciting), but it's relatively pedestrian in aesthetic, at least in terms of "wow factor". It's certainly not going to turn heads of anyone from larger markets.

The reality is that Oklahoma City is so far away from creating a skyline that commands instant validation upon first glance that it's kind of silly to even talk about it. The good thing is, though, it's become clear that it doesn't really matter that much anymore. Several cities have become or became hot spots despite having fairly modest skylines. Off the top of my head, Austin and Portland grew significantly in stature and population without much in the way of high rise architecture. They got there more on lifestyle amenities, culture, and/or prudent urban development. But we don't even have to look at other markets to know that's true. All we have to do is look at what about Oklahoma City has already been generating outside validation. For the most part it's been about the the increasing vitality of our urban districts other than the CBD or some of our public works and occasionally the opportunities it offers for entrepreneurs and low cost of living. If media attention is a measure of outside validation, then it seems to me that Bricktown, Midtown, Deep Deuce, and the Plaza district have done more for our image with their low rise buildings than any of our high rise buildings have. I suspect that 23rd street will soon be getting a lot of attention as well.

I'm not really trying to say that tall buildings don't have any significance, but in terms of being a source of outside validation for OKC in general, I think it will continue to play a very minor role for a long time and this is far from a game changer. Now, would placing this on a underdeveloped or under utilized lot somewhere else downtown while re-purposing this block into restaurants, apartments, and loft offices bring more validity to OKC as a vibrant and nice place to live and work, possibly even visit? Who knows, but it certainly would be much more in line with what attracts attention these days and we'd still would have a slightly expanded skyline with little to no loss of architecture and the chance at another lively destination in the core that people would actually want to go to and write about.

[Just the facts]

BDP - while you and I might agree with that assessment, we are clearly in the minority. As a suburban dominated city, downtown OKC is still seen as a work of art to be admired from a distance (10 miles). Many of the people who work downtown don't interact with the downtown environment other than their 1 hour lunch, and a lot of them use the concourse system to even do that.

On that note however, being able to see downtown from a great distance is a Midwest and Great Plains phenomena. Unless one is on the St Johns River or a bridge, downtown Jax isn't visible from most places so it isn't part of the suburban psyche here.

[Bellaboo]

I really understand your last paragraph and you make some good points, but it all came down to location for this building and it's clients. 499 though is not intended to be the wow factor building, that one is just across the street.

[Urbanized]

...On that note however, being able to see downtown from a great distance is a Midwest and Great Plains phenomena...

You've apparently never approached Manhattan from a distance.

[BDP]

I really understand your last paragraph and you make some good points, but it all came down to location for this building and it's clients. 499 though is not intended to be the wow factor building, that one is just across the street.

I do understand that, but I also think it makes it all the more perplexing. If it's such a good location, then making over 50% of it parking garages is a huge waste.