Union Bus Station

[Pete]

Working on getting a good webcam vantage point.

In the meantime, we have some people who can submit good stills almost daily.

[ChrisHayes]

I'll be submitting stills. I look forward to watching this building go up. As stated in other threads, I'm originally from the rust belt of Ohio so I've never gotten to see a city grow like this, let alone a high rise go up so I'll probably be taking hundreds of pictures. Personally, I've got very few problems with how OKC is growing. Until a LOT more housing is available around Downtown, people are going to drive into work, so parking is needed.

[Pete]

BTW, I've been assured the sign and tiles will be saved.

[gopokes88]

When I lived in London I enjoyed not having a car up until every 4 weeks when the tube workers would strike, and getting anywhere in the city was a nightmare. The other thing I realized was how much freedom a car gives someone. In London I was completely dependent on the tube, buses and if I could afford a cab. In Okc I can jump in my car and be nearly anywhere in the city in 15-25 minutes. Not having that option in London made me appreciate it all the more, particularly when I'm in a hurry.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I never sat in traffic or go to the gas station in London but I did deal with tube strikes, crowding during rush hour, having a 5-10 minute walk to get the tube and a 5-10 minute walk getting off, no AC on tube cars (they can get hot during rush hour times).

Last, every city that is put on a pedestal here is very very expensive to live in. If you build a wonderful urban walkable environment, higher prices will soon follow.

There's always trade offs between the two.

[SOONER8693]

When I lived in London I enjoyed not having a car up until every 4 weeks when the tube workers would strike, and getting anywhere in the city was a nightmare. The other thing I realized was how much freedom a car gives someone. In London I was completely dependent on the tube, buses and if I could afford a cab. In Okc I can jump in my car and be nearly anywhere in the city in 15-25 minutes. Not having that option in London made me appreciate it all the more, particularly when I'm in a hurry.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I never sat in traffic or go to the gas station in London but I did deal with tube strikes, crowding during rush hour, having a 5-10 minute walk to get the tube and a 5-10 minute walk getting off, no AC on tube cars (they can get hot during rush hour times).

Last, every city that is put on a pedestal here is very very expensive to live in. If you build a wonderful urban walkable environment, higher prices will soon follow.

There's always trade offs between the two.

Having spent some time in London, I agree totally with what you have stated.

[Pete]

I've spent a lot of time in London as well and had some job interviews there, and riding the tube to get to work is a completely different experience than bopping around mid-day and evening times as a tourist.

I remember letting two trains pass by because they were were so jam-packed I would have had to force myself on board, then be jammed into someone's smelly armpit for 45 minutes. My friends I was staying with said that was how it was both going to work and coming home every single day and they hated the tube. Londoners at rush hour -- particularly on a rainy day, which is the most common weather state -- are a surly, miserable bunch.

I also remember the Metro in Paris stinking to high heaven with B.O. when I was there during a particularly warm summer.


I absolutely love public transportation and take it whenever I get the chance, but having to rely on it exclusively is very, very different than the jaunty American who rides the train a few times, fantasizes about getting rid of their car, then comes home and piles into their luxury auto's leather seats, cranks up their 200-watt stereo and hits the drive-thru on the way back to their private garage.

[AP]

nm

[Bellaboo]

Since were on subways, if you've never been to Rome then you're missing the worst subway I've ever been on. Literally the majority of the stops have no elevators or escalators. Try pulling luggage up about 300 steps. Barcelona is one of the best I've been on though but only as a tourist. Helsinki's is good but very limited but they are expanding to the burbs too.

[TU 'cane]

If this is already coming out of the ground in 5 months, better hold onto our horses here because they mean business.
I imagine they want to get it going while they still have reason to do so. I was reading around yesterday and some speculation is floating that oil is about to bottom out again.

In the interim, it would have been awesome to see both this and the SC site going up simultaneously. Let's hope that gets going soon, as well.

[Pete]

It will be at least two years and probably three before this place is completely open for business.

Imagine how much things change in any given 3-year period.

[SoonerDave]

A nation of, by, and for the rich and powerful? We didn't need to see this to remind us - it's just another in the never ending reality.
I'm not ready to live in a world of "what is." I want to live in a world of "what we might be."
At 56, I may not see it...but I hope my children or their kids do.
A world where everything isn't determined by the size of your (or someone else's) bank account.

And such a world view always leaves those who hold it in a position of perfect hindsight-based morality, affording them the luxury of reconstructing the end result of any situation into one that demonstrates Yet Another Killing of their own personal sacred cows.

This attitude reminds me of the Cox Cable commercial with the annoying neighbor talking to the new family moving in, leaving with his final gripe about "the soil being mostly clay." In that guy's world, something's always wrong, something's always lamentable, someone's always out to getchya, someone's always got a sinister motive, and anything with a $ in front of it just has to be wrong and evil. I'm a pretty cynical guy at times, but man, I just can't live like that. The abstraction of perceived yet unattainable perfection in the future inevitably makes one perpetually miserable in the present.

[Laramie]

OKC's growing pains will continue.

Dallas, a city that blends the old with the new; however, there was uproar about some of the buildings that were demolished for progress until they got a handle on things.

As Dallas discusses slowing downtown demolitions, city council to consider task force and 10-day time-outs | | Dallas Morning News

A wrecking ball erased 129 years of history along Main Street in downtown Dallas Sunday | | Dallas Morning News

[hoya]

And such a world view always leaves those who hold it in a position of perfect hindsight-based morality, affording them the luxury of reconstructing the end result of any situation into one that demonstrates Yet Another Killing of their own personal sacred cows.

This attitude reminds me of the Cox Cable commercial with the annoying neighbor talking to the new family moving in, leaving with his final gripe about "the soil being mostly clay." In that guy's world, something's always wrong, something's always lamentable, someone's always out to getchya, someone's always got a sinister motive, and anything with a $ in front of it just has to be wrong and evil. I'm a pretty cynical guy at times, but man, I just can't live like that. The abstraction of perceived yet unattainable perfection in the future inevitably makes one perpetually miserable in the present.

Rich people having a lot of power is a fact of life. It doesn't have to be something you celebrate, but unless you're Hindu you've only got one life, so you should try to make it a happy one. We should try to make the world a better place, but you can't let something like this ruin your life. We aren't talking about civil rights violations here, at the end of the day a rich guy wants to build his new pretty building directly across the street from his old pretty building. There was some stuff in the way that people liked, but he pushed through and got his way and is going to tear it down so he can put his new blue glass building there. That's all this is about. I'm going to miss the Hotel Black and the Motor Hotel. I really liked those buildings. I'm sad to see them go. But when it comes to a rich guy abusing his power, this is way, way below hunting people on his private island.

[PhiAlpha]

If this is already coming out of the ground in 5 months, better hold onto our horses here because they mean business.
I imagine they want to get it going while they still have reason to do so. I was reading around yesterday and some speculation is floating that oil is about to bottom out again.

In the interim, it would have been awesome to see both this and the SC site going up simultaneously. Let's hope that gets going soon, as well.

As I've said before, they are planning this based on a long term need and thus using long term commodity forecasts. Not what the price will be next month, but over the next 5 years. Just as they did not during the Devon tower construction, commodity prices will not affect this. Devon also is not technically behind this development so the concern about investors being spooked by a new development are moot at this point.

[hoya]

I've spent a lot of time in London as well and had some job interviews there, and riding the tube to get to work is a completely different experience than bopping around mid-day and evening times as a tourist.

I remember letting two trains pass by because they were were so jam-packed I would have had to force myself on board, then be jammed into someone's smelly armpit for 45 minutes. My friends I was staying with said that was how it was both going to work and coming home every single day and they hated the tube. Londoners at rush hour -- particularly on a rainy day, which is the most common weather state -- are a surly, miserable bunch.

I also remember the Metro in Paris stinking to high heaven with B.O. when I was there during a particularly warm summer.


I absolutely love public transportation and take it whenever I get the chance, but having to rely on it exclusively is very, very different than the jaunty American who rides the train a few times, fantasizes about getting rid of their car, then comes home and piles into their luxury auto's leather seats, cranks up their 200-watt stereo and hits the drive-thru on the way back to their private garage.

OKC is never going to be as dense as London or Paris, not in my lifetime anyway. I lived in Washington DC for 3 years, and took the Metro there nearly every day. Public transportation can be pretty comfortable and clean. Rarely did I feel crammed in like a sardine.

Obviously there are problems when you get to the extremes. If your city is build completely around the car, you get Houston. If no regards are given to the car, you get London. OKC doesn't have to worry about being London, but Houston problems are a real possibility. That's why we need to try and develop the other direction.

[bradh]

Obviously there are problems when you get to the extremes. If your city is build completely around the car, you get Houston. If no regards are given to the car, you get London. OKC doesn't have to worry about being London, but Houston problems are a real possibility. That's why we need to try and develop the other direction.

The good news is we are already light years ahead of Houston for where it was when it was this size. They are playing catch up so bad with anything other than HOV lanes and commuter buses (which I know many here loathe, but when I worked downtown and lived in the burbs it was a Godsend).

[Pete]

^

Right, but JTF is specifically talking about moving to London and there almost no one has a car and must take public transportation, which is a very different proposition than in most U.S. Cities.

The point was that going to the complete opposite end of the spectrum isn't all fun and smiley subway and bus rides, especially when you are forced to use the systems and the weather, strikes or other conditions are less than ideal.

All my friends there aspired to have a car and got one as soon as they could afford to buy one and park it.

[Bellaboo]

Another thing about public transportation and God forbid, there's been terrorist attacks in London and all over the world for that matter on buses and trains. All forms of public transport for that matter.

[SoonerDave]

^

Right, but JTF is specifically talking about moving to London and there almost no one has a car and must take public transportation, which is a very different proposition than in most U.S. Cities.

The point was that going to the complete opposite end of the spectrum isn't all fun and smiley subway and bus rides, especially when you are forced to use the systems and the weather, strikes or other conditions are less than ideal.

All my friends there aspired to have a car and got one as soon as they could afford to buy one and park it.

I think this is an *excellent* point about how the notion of "dismantling the auto-centric city" is a non-starter in real-world terms. The reality is about balance.

We live here in OKC and in many respect a lot of us have no clue what transportation is like in other larger, more densely populated cities. Heck, go look at a city like Arlington, between Dallas and Fort Worth; the interstate and connecting roads are an inescapable part of moving tens (hundreds?) of thousands of poeple every day. The idea of translating that exclusively into something like a subway just doesn't even make sense. The key is balance, and that's why I don't mind exploring and expanding the use of other forms of transportation - but this notion of "we'll dump cars" just isn't realistic.

[AP]

Regardless of the same arguments that continue to be had on this board about how OKC really just needs balance and all of the urbanists need to just get over it or move, that fact of the matter is, there is absolutely zero balance as it is and drastic measures need to be taken for many years for that to even come close to reality.

[SoonerDave]

Regardless of the same arguments that continue to be had on this board about how OKC really just needs balance and all of the urbanists need to just get over it or move, that fact of the matter is, there is absolutely zero balance as it is and drastic measures need to be taken for many years for that to even come close to reality.

"Zero" balance? "Drastic" measures? Such as?

I tend to view hyperbole in any direction with a jaundiced eye, so I'm looking for something more concrete. What does "zero balance" mean? Yes, we are a car-heavy city and we always, always will be. I'm fine with the exploration of alternatives and more/better sensibly funded public transit. But I don't get this "drastic measures" bit. What does that mean, exactly?

[Teo9969]

"Zero" balance? "Drastic" measures? Such as?

I tend to view hyperbole in any direction with a jaundiced eye, so I'm looking for something more concrete. What does "zero balance" mean? Yes, we are a car-heavy city and we always, always will be. I'm fine with the exploration of alternatives and more/better sensibly funded public transit. But I don't get this "drastic measures" bit. What does that mean, exactly?

Zero balance?

The ratio is about 99:1 Suburban to Urban development. Nobody is calling for 50:50, that's never happening. 80:20 would be amazing.

[gopokes88]

Regardless of the same arguments that continue to be had on this board about how OKC really just needs balance and all of the urbanists need to just get over it or move, that fact of the matter is, there is absolutely zero balance as it is and drastic measures need to be taken for many years for that to even come close to reality.

I agree that we need a balanced approach but it's not nearly as bleak as you make it seem. In 10 years, downtown, midtown, AA, deep deuce, and avana arts will be one fluid walkable urban district. It will be completely infilled, the street car will be running to connect everything. It will be great. The progress being made just isn't as fast as many people would like, but there's a million different moving parts in a city that is trying to reinvent itself. It's no easy task and this would be the equivalent of London trying to be more car friendly.

It's very hard to change course once something has been started. (look at liquor laws) This city was built completely around the car up until the last 5-10years when urban environment became a priority. It's not going to be a quick or easy change and progress will be incremental and slow. The reason people get frustrated on this board is they aren't happy or content with the way OKC is now, they'll only be happy when it changes to what they want or what it could be.

The end result 20 years from now is still going to be a car centric suburb style city with a great urban core. (maybe LRT from NW expressway and Edmond into downtown although its probably 30 out)

[skanaly]

Skanaly, what is the best way to get your name on this list? I'd really like to do this too.

I just told them I had family history there....and they were all for it. Very kind

[dankrutka]

"Zero" balance? "Drastic" measures? Such as?

I tend to view hyperbole in any direction with a jaundiced eye, so I'm looking for something more concrete. What does "zero balance" mean? Yes, we are a car-heavy city and we always, always will be. I'm fine with the exploration of alternatives and more/better sensibly funded public transit. But I don't get this "drastic measures" bit. What does that mean, exactly?

How do you know OKC will always, always be a car-heavy city? New inventions or a global climate crisis could end the car model for all we know. Cars could die as the primary means of transportation within a century. Who knows?