Union Bus Station

[Laramie]

This attitude, which is quite common in Oklahoma, is one of the reasons why people leave.

Instead of trying to understand or learn more about someone's way of life, Oklahoma tells them to bug off and live somewhere else.

I will agree with everyone that thinks Kerry can be a little over the top and absolute in his forum postings.

However, one thing is for certain, he is consistent in his beliefs and he is not afraid to voice his opinion. I have met him in person, and I think that carries over. He is very consistent.

Someone who is consistent, wants to be involved, and will voice opinion is someone you want to keep around, not push away.

I wish more Oklahomans were open to creating a more diverse environment, and enthusiastic toward fostering idea growth and discussion. Your post is an unfortunate caricature of the stubbornness of Oklahoma which is permanently driving away and repelling many intelligent people.

Oh so true!

The focus should be on improvement. JTF (Kerry) has a wealth of experience and knowledge whether you agree with him or not doesn't mean that what he says has to be dismissed or disrespected.

Sometimes you have to spend time in other places to understand what might work here in Oklahoma.

The 'love it or leave it' attitude does not allow a community to evaluate its current state or allow you to be open to change or incorporate new ideas.

[Bullbear]

Buh-bye. Don't think you will be missed.

I agree with everything stated about this comment already. no way to behave or to make our city any better. I can understand frustration with some posters who constantly complain about okc and how this city or that city is better and we will never be that city. but I don't think JTF has ever been that person. we all don't have to agree on things but no need for this mentality.

My frustration with the Bus Station is they could have still built everything they wanted here and still saved the bus station but they didn't want to. its gross

[Teo9969]

The problem I have is that this project isn't a 2 or 3, it is a -3 or -4 for me. Skywalks, parking garages fronting all 4 adjacent streets (including at 2 intersections), large building setback, lackluster architecture, very little retail space, no sidewalk interaction, bike lane removal, increase traffic, etc are all negatives. You can't add a bunch of negatives together and get a positive number. I guess the difference of opinion all starts with the basic assumption about development. Some people see development as a total positive (a 10), and then subtract points for things they don't like. I am neutral on developments so I start at 0 and add points for things I like (and subtract points for things I don't like).

Expansion of Class A space is a positive.
Much to Others and my chagrin, alleviation of parking is a positive.
(Eventual) increased Tax base is a positive.
The fact that it is a nice enough building that I'm sure will provide certain amenities is a positive.
If they get any sort of Street retail in any of these buildings, it is a positive.

All the positives and all the negatives for me make this about a 5 on the scale of 1-10. If you allow me to include what we're losing to build this, I'd drop it to a 3.5 out of spite.

This is only a bad development if you refuse to think outside of yourself and your own beliefs.

But I'll definitely agree with you that it's not a good development, especially with how easy it would be to make certain elements obey urban principles.

[Just the facts]

Your method would make more sense if these developments existed in a vacuum, but they don't. I am a big picture person. Projects like this do more harm than good to the big picture - the big picture being the City's stated objective of producing a walkable downtown.

[kevinpate]

FWIW, I'll Miss JTF if he goes away. Not enough to write sad, moving ballads about it, but I will miss him.

Sorry about the no ballad part guy, but g-babies are soon to be back in OK, and I'll be way too busy learning the 8 and under tunes I don't have down cold to be writing any sad ballads.

[Pete]

Just taken by HHE:

[BoulderSooner]

Your method would make more sense if these developments existed in a vacuum, but they don't. I am a big picture person. Projects like this do more harm than good to the big picture - the big picture being the City's stated objective of producing a walkable downtown.

Sorry but you don't get to fire out generalisations with out being challenged. Does the city want more walkability. Sure it does. But that is not the only goal or is it the "big picture". The city also wants more downtown jobs. And with that comes parking .... Period. You can't have it both ways. On one hand you say only the street level matters. Well this has street level retail. (You bash it because of parking ). In the real world parking is very needed in downtown and will continue to be for the forseeable future. Downtown is growing in houses yes. But the burbs are growing faster. And that is where workers will still come from.

[Pete]

The current reality of downtown is that there are significant parking shortages and thus that has to be sorted out to move downtown employment forward.

It's the result of our very compact downtown and most the bigger buildings without any dedicated parking.

There is the legitimate and immediate need for parking, otherwise so much wouldn't be being built.


Eventually, the streetcar and commuter rail and biking will help, but we are a long ways from having any of that make a significant difference.


I'm personally ready to move on and look forward to seeing the new development and hope they find some good restaurant / retail tenants. That entire area has been a deadzone far too long.

[Just the facts]

You win BoulderSooner. I am surrendering and moving to a part of the world in the process of dismantling the auto-centric city.

[Pete]

You win BoulderSooner. I am surrendering and moving to a part of the world in the process of dismantling the auto-centric city.

You would be moving to a part of the world that was largely developed before there were even cars.

Not really a fair comparison or realistic model for new cities like OKC, and setting such an unrealistic standard is only going to leave you disappointed.

[BoulderSooner]

You win BoulderSooner. I am surrendering and moving to a part of the world in the process of dismantling the auto-centric city.

So back to the suburbs of Jacksonville where you have lived for so long.

[AP]

Since it's so unrealistic everyone should just give up and be content with this doomed cycle of the way current cities are building. Sounds wonderful.

[Pete]

I meant wanting OKC to be London is unrealistic.

Wanting it to be Denver or a similar U.S. city provides an actual blueprint we can follow.

In the short-term we have to have parking if we want companies to move into or expand downtown.


I wish this project has dealt with the required parking in a more creative way, but they still need the parking otherwise it wouldn't be being built. The property it is being constructed upon was very expensive.

[bradh]

Since it's so unrealistic everyone should just give up and be content with this doomed cycle of the way current cities are building. Sounds wonderful.

That's a little over-dramatic. I think Pete makes a very solid point.

[Just the facts]

So back to the suburbs of Jacksonville where you have lived for so long.

I hope not. The house in Jax is up for sale,

[Just the facts]

You would be moving to a part of the world that was largely developed before there were even cars.

Not really a fair comparison or realistic model for new cities like OKC, and setting such an unrealistic standard is only going to leave you disappointed.

That is exactly why I decided to give up.

[Rover]

Anybody that doesn't understand the deep, deep hole that OKC has had to dig out of just isn't very aware. In the context of the developed world, or even in the context of the US, OKC is very, very young. Most of the cities that JTF and others point to as their ideal have existed for a very long time and have been through many of the same problems we have experienced. Many have geographical issues containing their sprawl. Many have economic issues which altered their development patterns.

I have been blessed to have traveled the world many, many times over to most of the great cities of the world...and virtually all have traffic problems and parking problems. They have decay and rebuilding. They destroy buildings with heritage and have controversy over new development. They are fraught with corruption, stagnation, and other problems, just like we do. They are ruled by the powerful and the rich get their way. We didn't invent any of this stuff. If you want to pack up and leave for these reasons, you will be a vagabond hobo the rest of your life.

OKC has miles and miles to go. It is trying to get to good, let alone great or perfect. But I think some really, really underestimate the livability here. If OKC isn't the style they want then it will be much easier on everyone if they do go somewhere for a better match. But, if you want OKC to be a better place for succeeding generations and you are willing to help make that happen, OKC is a great challenge and not a bad place to live. Some people enjoy the work in progress, and some just have to have the finished product. Everyone is different.

If JTF thinks London is utopia, so be it. I have spent considerable time there and know it has some fabulous areas....if you can afford to hang there. But I know enough residents to know their challenges, as well. Bottom line, I hope JTF has a happy and fulfilling life wherever he is and continues to share his ideals and dogma with us here on okctalk. We should welcome his feedback after he has had time to actually immerse in a life somewhere else and give us good feedback.

[Just the facts]

Good stuff Rover, but I am well aware utopia doesn't exist. Every place has problems, they are just different problems.

Also, yes nearly every place has traffic problems, which is proof that the only way to solve it is to simply not participate in it.

That is what is so darn frustrating about OKC. No city in the history of the world built enough parking garages or freeway lanes to solve the problem, but the good people of OKC won't let that stop them from trying it anyhow. I am reminded of Rush's comments about liberals trying to end poverty by using the same failed ideas that rest of the world already tried and failed at.

Now you do make a good point about those being up for the challenge having an opportunity here in OKC. I just dicided that it isn't for me because it will only result in continual frustration and then I die at the end. No thanks. I am more revolution than evolution.

[RickOKC]

With all due respect to JTF (and there are elements of his perspective I deeply appreciate) how did a thread about the bus station get derailed into a counseling session with one jaded person who is giving up on a city in which he has not lived for some time?

[Just the facts]

With all due respect to JTF (and there are elements of his perspective I deeply appreciate) how did a thread about the bus station get derailed into a counseling session with one jaded person who is giving up on a city in which he has not lived for some time?

That is a good question. Back to the demo.
(btw - I live in OKC now).

[Teo9969]

This isn't about one jaded person. There are many people who have varying levels of frustration with the city. I mean, hell, there are people that have worked for the city that gave up and left town. Some super super talented people. There are people with money that leave out of frustration that could be the kinds of contributors that are sorely needed for this city to become something great.

And this is the perfect thread: The bus station is now a relic of the past…there is no future for this building, and it's analogous for many people that no longer have a future here because of the missteps we have made and continue to make in the development of this city.

It sucks to see the Bus station go down. It sucks more to see the soul sucked out of people who really really care about this community. Maybe the parking garages will offset those losses. But it's not likely.

All because of money. There is simply no other reason. It's disappointing.

[skanaly]

If anyone wants bricks from the buildings Midwest is taking names down and giving out information to contact them with. They told me to call a certain someone in a couple weeks and they will have bricks for me from every building. I thought that was pretty cool.

[Pete]

Job site trailers being delivered today:

[baralheia]

Skanaly, what is the best way to get your name on this list? I'd really like to do this too.

[Bellaboo]

I have a feeling this thing will be coming out of the ground this winter.

Pete, are we going to get a camera ?