Ten Commandments

[Midtowner]

How can non-Christian laws promote Christianity?

Go find me someone who is offended by the Court's ruling who truly believes that it was not an attack on their Christian faith.

That person does not exist.

And if they claim otherwise, refer them to Commandment no. 9.

[jn1780]

How can non-Christian laws promote Christianity? I will agree with bchris02 on this one item - the display was poorly done and out of place, both in location and style - and should have been rejected on those merits alone.

Obviously a lot of other Christians don't feel the same way about them being non-Christian laws. Jesus coming around didn't make the ten commandments completely irrelevant to Christianity.

[Just the facts]

Obviously a lot of other Christians don't feel the same way about them being non-Christian laws. Jesus coming around didn't make the ten commandments completely irrelevant to Christianity.

Yes it did. Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses. Also, they never applied to Christians - period.

[jn1780]

Yes it did. Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses. Also, they never applied to Christians - period.

Then they sure do spend a lot of time talking about and whining about things that are irrelevant.

[Bunty]

Shouldn't it concern everybody if it violates the State Constitution, even if you don't care about what it is?

Yes, but many Christians see the need to pick and choose what passages to follow in the Bible, so I'm not surprised they want to treat the Constitution in the same way.

[Just the facts]

Then they sure do spend a lot of time talking about and whining about things that are irrelevant.

Well, no arguement there. I don't understand why "Christians" want it posted either. If they are using the word of God as a weapon of division that is an unforgivable sin. God knows their motivation and he will sort it out in due time.

[mugofbeer]

Yes, but many Christians see the need to pick and choose what passages to follow in the Bible, so I'm not surprised they want to treat the Constitution in the same way.

Thats called "human nature." Picking and choosing is something practiced by virtually every human on the planet. There are dozens of Christian denominations because of interpretations of the bible. Its always been that way and, for the most part, they respect the others differences. Perhaps the real issue is tolerance of those with religious viewpoints by those who dont and vice versa. Dealing with Christianity is a piece of cake. Remember there are religious faiths out there where complete INtolerance of interpretation or lack of faith is mainstream practice.

[Bunty]

Well, no argument there. I don't understand why "Christians" want it posted either. If they are using the word of God as a weapon of division that is an unforgivable sin. God knows their motivation and he will sort it out in due time.

For some reason some of them feel the state must acknowledge the presence of God. The state displaying the Ten Commandments is a great way to do it, they feel. I think "In God We Trust" printed on money should be enough for them.

To quote Judge Roy Moore when he unveiled his 10 Commandments monument in the rotunda of the Alabama Judicial Building in 2001, "Today a cry has gone out across our land for the acknowledgment of that God upon whom this nation and our laws were founded....May this day mark the restoration of the moral foundation of law to our people and the return to the knowledge of God in our land."

Moore also felt his monument served to remind the Appellate Courts and judges of the Circuit and District Court of Alabama and members of the bar who appear before them, as well as the people of Alabama who visit the Alabama Judicial Building, of the truth stated in the Preamble to the Alabama Constitution that in order to establish justice we must invoke "the favor and guidance of almighty God". What's quoted is found in the preamble to the Alabama Constitution. Moore had no concern that the monument made some people of different religious beliefs feel uncomfortable. Under federal court order, the monument was removed from public view in 2003 and out of the building in 2004.

[Midtowner]

This isn't about displaying the 10 Commandments. It's a struggle of wills between people who want to prove this is still a Christian nation by placing these monuments and telling everyone else there's not a damned thing you can do about it vs. the people who will do something about it. Maybe the most remarkable part of this issue is the fact that the Christian side is so willing to just flat out lie about the 10 Commandments being the basis for law or some non-religious historical document.

Many of them now truly believe that.

Anti intellectualism has reached a fevered pitch in the United States and it presents a crisis for the Christian faith. So many people think that to be Christian, you have to be anti-science and anti-reason. No, that's just your asshole pastor who happens to be a moron who needs you to be more of a moron to get your money.

[bchris02]

For some reason some of them feel the state must acknowledge the presence of God. The state displaying the Ten Commandments is a great way to do it, they feel. I think "In God We Trust" printed on money should be enough for them.

To quote Judge Roy Moore when he unveiled his 10 Commandments monument in the rotunda of the Alabama Judicial Building in 2001, "Today a cry has gone out across our land for the acknowledgment of that God upon whom this nation and our laws were founded....May this day mark the restoration of the moral foundation of law to our people and the return to the knowledge of God in our land."

"Replacement theology" is extremely common in evangelical/fundamentalist circles, especially here in the Bible belt. Basically the line of thinking is that America is God's chosen nation in this age and all of the blessings and curses promised to the theocracy of ancient Israel apply to America today.

In the Old Testament, Israel was set up to be a complete theocracy based on the law of Moses contained in the first five books of the Bible. Whenever the nation of Israel had a king that enforced the laws handed down to Moses and acknowledge God in all aspects of government as well as banned worship of false gods and put "sexual deviants" to death, God blessed the nation. Whenever there was an "evil" king who allowed religious pluralism, statues of other gods besides Yahweh, and "sexual immorality", God would punish the nation. Eventually, the nation had drifted so far from strict enforcement of Mosaic law that God destroyed Jerusalem and allowed the people to be taken into Babylonian captivity.

Knowing this basic history is important to understand the worldview of the Christian Right today. If America is modern Israel, then removing the Ten Commandments is an affront to God and is inviting his wrath and same-sex marriage is an even bigger deal. So when you ask why the Christian Right cannot adhere to separation of church and state, this is why. In their mind there is no such concept and no room for compromise.

[Just the facts]

I'll grant you that there are some seriously misguided people who call themselves Christians. The USA is not God's chosen nation for two reasons 1) The USA is not a nation in the biblical sense and 2) There is only one Judgment Day - and it hasn't happened yet. So these people who say God is punishing us for reason X are sadly spreading a false doctrine. However, I do believe God has established the pattern for the sustainability of society and when that pattern isn't followed collapse is an inevitability. Look around the country today - is there anyone who seriously believes we can keep it together for 5 more years? I don't. Midtowner once remarked that James Buchanan was the worst President in US history because the seeds of the Civil War were sewn on his watch. If Midtowner actually believes that, his opinion of Obama must be in the toilet.

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
- John Adams

[Midtowner]

It is trully a silly notion to think Obama has sewn the seeds of rebellion. 1) conservatives are too chicken to do it, the world doesn't work like that and 2) if you look at what has happened on Obama's watch, comparing him to Buchanan is some ridicuous hyperbole.

[Just the facts]

It is trully a silly notion to think Obama has sewn the seeds of rebellion. 1) conservatives are too chicken to do it, the world doesn't work like that and 2) if you look at what has happened on Obama's watch, comparing him to Buchanan is some ridicuous hyperbole.

I thought you would wuss out.

[Bunty]

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-free...n-commandments

[jerrywall]

Why are all these people just injecting the ACLU into everything...

.... oh wait...

[Just the facts]

Nullification is alive and well (apparently at all levels of government). Bring on 2020 and a return of the City-State.

What happens when the Supreme Court is no longer supreme?

[Jersey Boss]

Nullification is alive and well (apparently at all levels of government). Bring on 2020 and a return of the City-State.

What happens when the Supreme Court is no longer supreme?

Why would SCOTUS no longer be SCOTUS? Triggering event? Why do you think this will happen? When do you think this will happen?

[Just the facts]

I was talking about the Oklahoma Supreme Court. As for Nullification in general, look at legalized pot and sanctuary cities. More and more people are caring less and less about government powers and are just ignoring them.

Team Obama should have prosecuted pot dealers in Colorado if for no other reason than to protect federal sovereignty. It okay though, Midtowner says rebellion isn't happening.

[bombermwc]

Much like with gay marriage (which I support...and remember I am a Christian...shock), it really pisses me off when politicians/judges decide they think they know better and try to do whatever they want regardless of what the supreme court says. SCOTUS says marriage is legal, so the time for debate is over. It's time now to get the states in line with FEDERAL law and stop discriminating (which is what it was). SCOK says the monument needs to go, yet FAILIN' (if you never saw the youtube video of that guy...oh man, it's hilarious) wants to try and counter them. It's not a new battle, but the supreme court was set up to be a deciding voice that was (at least in theory) free from political pressures...ie they don't have to vote a certain way so they retain their seat. We may not always like their decisions, but at some point you have to give up when the SCOTUS says something....the discussion is over.

And if OK finds a way to keep the monument on the capital grounds, then we should fully expect to see other religious institutions (such as satanic folk) working to get theirs in there too. We'll see the battle of who's monument is bigger/better, and if the state tries to start regulating what gets in....whoa Nellie, we're going to see a much bigger and much more public legal battle. The state folks would be wise to put their brains back on their heads and get the damned thing out of there.

[Midtowner]

Right now it's no big deal--it's part of the process. Fallin hasn't won some glorious victory by refusing to take the monument down. The Supreme Court has stayed their ruling pending the rehearing they granted when the AG asked for one. I don't think there is any new information to present to the Court except perhaps the AG feels that the Court may be persuaded by all of the calls for their impeachment and removal, which I guarantee you is not part of the equation.

So it's a mere delay of the inevitable and then let the gnashing of teeth resume at full volume.

[kelroy55]

Part of me is hoping she wins just so other monuments start popping up.

[Bunty]

But I don't know of any Supreme Court decision, which resulted in a government owned park dedicated to religious monuments.

[Bunty]

Right now it's no big deal--it's part of the process. Fallin hasn't won some glorious victory by refusing to take the monument down. The Supreme Court has stayed their ruling pending the rehearing they granted when the AG asked for one. I don't think there is any new information to present to the Court except perhaps the AG feels that the Court may be persuaded by all of the calls for their impeachment and removal, which I guarantee you is not part of the equation.

So it's a mere delay of the inevitable and then let the gnashing of teeth resume at full volume.

Right. In the Tulsa World, the ACLU said all that Pruitt is doing in his appeal is recycling old arguments.

[kevinpate]

Had the Court already denied rehearing and issued a mandate, a refusal to remove the monument would be in defiance of the court's ruling.
Until the mandate comes down, any talk of defiance is simply posturing or fundraising.

[kelroy55]

This isn't about displaying the 10 Commandments. It's a struggle of wills between people who want to prove this is still a Christian nation by placing these monuments and telling everyone else there's not a damned thing you can do about it vs. the people who will do something about it. Maybe the most remarkable part of this issue is the fact that the Christian side is so willing to just flat out lie about the 10 Commandments being the basis for law or some non-religious historical document.

Many of them now truly believe that.

Anti intellectualism has reached a fevered pitch in the United States and it presents a crisis for the Christian faith. So many people think that to be Christian, you have to be anti-science and anti-reason. No, that's just your asshole pastor who happens to be a moron who needs you to be more of a moron to get your money.

Heard this on NPR and thought it interesting.

Evangelical Pastors Gather To Learn Another Calling: Politics : NPR