BOK Park Plaza

[Spartan]

I now know what Pete was talking about when he criticized the knee-jerk boosterism of OKC deciders. If you're not a "team player," you're labeled as "hostile to development." Um, no. This city has improved enough -- and Devon and others have helped in this regard -- that we shouldn't settle for "cheap and crappy." It's OK to be opposed to this. Anyone with even a modicum of understanding recognizes that stuffing another parking garage across from another on a key, prime, high profile block is an indefensible joke. Pointing that out is good.

People who think this discussion is out of bounds have never lived in a real city, where they argue over the placement of trees and light posts. People argue over such seemingly trivial things because those places are valued, have value, and are worth fighting for. I believe OKC may someday be a place in which developers strive to make our city a better, more thriving place, and a place in which discussions about the impact of developments are welcomed because developers want to do the best they can to improve our city, not just appease the whims of powerful individuals.

I love what Devon has done for OKC, but this is a bad development. It is bad for OKC, and the citizens are not stupid enough to be snowed by the weak arguments made to support this development. Observing the situation, it appears that people are intimidated to voice their obvious displeasure with this unfolding catastrophe. Why?

We do this all the time. Every single year a project comes along that people are afraid to oppose. The regularity of these quagmires is becoming unique to OKC. And I say quagmire bc other cities have bad projecs too, but critical thought isn't as frequently verboten.

OKC is just a Midwestern mild manners kinda place. Questioning the herd mentality just isn't looked at too kindly.

[Rover]

In OKC and many places we spend more time and money trying to change the results of bad ordinances, laws,rules, etc. than we do trying to change the ordinances, laws, rules that allowed them in the first place. Change needs to happen where it will actually effect change. That is harder work than just hiring attorneys ar griping on an internet board. When we become proactive vs. reactive then we can change. Until then, we just whine. The courts aren't there to change things, just to rule on and enforce what has already been lawfully declared. Pontificating online changes nothing. We can choose to be activists or just complain about being victims.

[Pete]

The demolition ordinance is actively being re-worked and has been through many committees and public meetings.

And lots of people on this site are active on the various committees.

[Bellaboo]

Pete,
I'm pretty sure you'll have a construction cam ? Oklahoma Tower maybe ?

[Rover]

The demolition ordinance is actively being re-worked and has been through many committees and public meetings.

And lots of people on this site are active on the various committees.

And, I am talking about finding responsible ELECTABLE smart people to run.

[UnFrSaKn]

Judge mulls decision | News OK

[Laramie]

Sure, we'll have a skyline which looks impressive for a city of 1.4 million residents once these projects are completed which will make the skyline appear more filled & balanced. We sacrificed quality for height and quantity. 499 Sheridan (27 stories--height 433) will be another white glow that you see in cities like Dallas & Tulsa.

One Main Place, Dallas--33 stories--height 445

110 West 7th Building, Tulsa 28 stories--height 388 ft.

Let's hope that by the time someone like Harold Hamn decides to put up his tower, OKC will have something that complements the Devon Tower.

[soonerguru]

In OKC and many places we spend more time and money trying to change the results of bad ordinances, laws,rules, etc. than we do trying to change the ordinances, laws, rules that allowed them in the first place. Change needs to happen where it will actually effect change. That is harder work than just hiring attorneys ar griping on an internet board. When we become proactive vs. reactive then we can change. Until then, we just whine. The courts aren't there to change things, just to rule on and enforce what has already been lawfully declared. Pontificating online changes nothing. We can choose to be activists or just complain about being victims.

This is a discussion board. People discuss things, good and bad, as you have yourself when pointing out inferior construction. What am I missing here?

[Spartan]

And, I am talking about finding responsible ELECTABLE smart people to run.

Some wards legitimately don't want that. James Greiner for instance. Greenwell is a huge improvement for Ward 5. Also, if/when Pete White retires, that ward is going to be a problem. I can see it now. You somehow have a liberal democrat w a conscience who represents SE OKC, need I say more?

Now really might be the best time to make these changes stick.

[Urban Pioneer]

It drives me crazy when people keep throwin some shade on Shadid. It's immature and counter productive. I can handle when someone I like disagrees with me on one issue (the streetcar). Urban Pioneer is the only poster on here who has any good reason to dislike Ed. The rest of us, time to move on and make amends.

but I would be willing to bet that despite the dislike UP likely applauds and supports Shadid's efforts here. That's class and like others have said I AM glad Shadid is on the council and do weigh his contributions based on merit not prejudice.

Well I do appreciate urbanism in most of it's forms. The pictures of the Savannah restaurant initially put out on twitter by Allison Barta Bailey, copied here, and referenced in the court proceedings lend an idea that the building and thus the corner could be activated in an inspired way that includes preservation. It is a worthwhile discussion at least. I also respect the private property rights arguments and the fact that no public money has been asked for. Still... it's another freaking parking garage!

Regarding Ed... I appreciate many of the arguments that he makes on many important issues. It's a shame that our conflict on the streetcar system became so unnecessarily personal. And if you talk to people who have conflicts with him and some of his core his supporters, on no matter what the issue, they apparently often become unnecessairly personal once things heat up. He and his core supporters often question people's personal motives and the result is that it then becomes hard to judge his sincerity on the issue at hand. Now mind you, I am not without my own flaws. I gave cause for some of this conflict and have debated him when possible with relish. That is my nature.

But all of this has led up to serious irony. Ed was first a streetcar supporter. Then he wasn't. He has created an unnecessary conflict between public transit proponents about "bus versus streetcar". This continues today even though our goal has always been to elevate all of public transit. Then, with great irony, the streetcar system was trumpeted by him and his attorney as an alternative solution to the parking and access problem on this 499 project.

I have been arguing for years that the streetcar system can address our fundamental downtown pedestrian access problems, activate sidewalk activity, allow for remoting the locations of parking garages, and ultimately be the mechanism by which a commuter rail and bus system distributes and picks up downtown workers each day.

After seeing building after building torn down for parking, I am convinced the only way the mindset will start to change is only after the streetcar system is built and up and running. And unfortunately, the 499 parking garage design may be an solid indicator that the city will be willing to accept the destruction of the absolute most core part of our city for the First National Center project.

Regarding Ed... It is hard to say what the motivations are behind taking up this cause. Urbanist philanthropist? Political ambitions? Personal vendettas with Larry Nichols? All of the above?

Regardless of his motivations an whether or not they are sincere or not sincere, I agree with Pete. The only way to properly way to create an opinion on each of the causes that he takes up is to consider them individually.

I am willing to let go of the past and work together with Ed and the other City Council members to build a comprehensive public transit system. Streetcar supporters won. The streetcar system is going to get built. It is going to set the standard by which all other public transit in this city should be weighed. Our bus system merits the same levels of investments. Policies regarding how we build and fund bus shelters should be reevaluated. The Regional Transit Authority should be formally created and a funding mechanism should be approved.

These broader debates regarding preservation, urbanity, parking garages, density, walkability, are only going to resolved though a comprehensive alternative to using automobiles to get everywhere. And we need $1.2 billion and a few people to retire or die off to do it.

[Spartan]

Thanks for the response UP, and I'm glad that it sounds like you want to work with him. Extending the olive branch is not just respectable, but also puts the onus on the other side.

I think as long as the two pro-transit factions work together, OKC will succeed in getting a comprehensive and efficient system off the ground. Something that benefits everybody, not just downtowners or carless Walmart shoppers (our current bus system's target market).

We also need to band together to keep bus-essential developments (like a new social security office or county health clinic) within a limited bus grid. We can figure out infrastructure capital costs pretty easily - but ongoing O+M funding needs to be secured for more rail and bus (the latter of which will be more expensive but necessary).

Streetcars honestly are easier because they generate taxes and run light on O+M costs long term.

[soonerguru]

Some wards legitimately don't want that. James Greiner for instance. Greenwell is a huge improvement for Ward 5. Also, if/when Pete White retires, that ward is going to be a problem. I can see it now. You somehow have a liberal democrat w a conscience who represents SE OKC, need I say more?

Now really might be the best time to make these changes stick.

While he may have a conscience, he often votes irrationally. I think OKC will soldier on once he elects to hang up his cleats.

[Teo9969]

Well I do appreciate urbanism in most of it's forms. The pictures of the Savannah restaurant initially put out on twitter by Allison Barta Bailey, copied here, and referenced in the court proceedings lend an idea that the building and thus the corner could be activated in an inspired way that includes preservation. It is a worthwhile discussion at least. I also respect the private property rights arguments and the fact that no public money has been asked for. Still... it's another freaking parking garage!

Regarding Ed... I appreciate many of the arguments that he makes on many important issues. It's a shame that our conflict on the streetcar system became so unnecessarily personal. And if you talk to people who have conflicts with him and some of his core his supporters, on no matter what the issue, they apparently often become unnecessairly personal once things heat up. He and his core supporters often question people's personal motives and the result is that it then becomes hard to judge his sincerity on the issue at hand. Now mind you, I am not without my own flaws. I gave cause for some of this conflict and have debated him when possible with relish. That is my nature.

But all of this has led up to serious irony. Ed was first a streetcar supporter. Then he wasn't. He has created an unnecessary conflict between public transit proponents about "bus versus streetcar". This continues today even though our goal has always been to elevate all of public transit. Then, with great irony, the streetcar system was trumpeted by him and his attorney as an alternative solution to the parking and access problem on this 499 project.

I have been arguing for years that the streetcar system can address our fundamental downtown pedestrian access problems, activate sidewalk activity, allow for remoting the locations of parking garages, and ultimately be the mechanism by which a commuter rail and bus system distributes and picks up downtown workers each day.

After seeing building after building torn down for parking, I am convinced the only way the mindset will start to change is only after the streetcar system is built and up and running. And unfortunately, the 499 parking garage design may be an solid indicator that the city will be willing to accept the destruction of the absolute most core part of our city for the First National Center project.

Regarding Ed... It is hard to say what the motivations are behind taking up this cause. Urbanist philanthropist? Political ambitions? Personal vendettas with Larry Nichols? All of the above?

Regardless of his motivations an whether or not they are sincere or not sincere, I agree with Pete. The only way to properly way to create an opinion on each of the causes that he takes up is to consider them individually.

I am willing to let go of the past and work together with Ed and the other City Council members to build a comprehensive public transit system. Streetcar supporters won. The streetcar system is going to get built. It is going to set the standard by which all other public transit in this city should be weighed. Our bus system merits the same levels of investments. Policies regarding how we build and fund bus shelters should be reevaluated. The Regional Transit Authority should be formally created and a funding mechanism should be approved.

These broader debates regarding preservation, urbanity, parking garages, density, walkability, are only going to resolved though a comprehensive alternative to using automobiles to get everywhere. And we need $1.2 billion and a few people to retire or die off to do it.

Omg what an amazing post.

[sooner88]

Omg what an amazing post.

This is as level-headed and as rationale that you can respond. I think that logic applies to pretty much everything, but if you take things on a case-by-case basis, what Shadid has been doing lately has completely changed my opinion on him. Even if he doesn't win, he spent a ton of money out of his own pocket and pushed back against something that would otherwise have been easily approved and has made people at least question the DDRC and the City. I think that the judge is going to rule quickly in favor of the City, but it seems like, if anything, that this will make the process for demolition of any building in the CBD, or surrounding areas, (whether it is Historically protected or not) a little more intensive.

[Spartan]

While he may have a conscience, he often votes irrationally. I think OKC will soldier on once he elects to hang up his cleats.

You have to include him and make sure he understands how this is evolving. I think he was just surprised at how this project has evolved and seemed okay once streetcar experts reached out to him. He'll probably be extremely supportive of a Capitol Hill extension.

[Urban Pioneer]

Omg what an amazing post.

Thanks so much! I really want to see our city continue to progress.

[ChrisHayes]

Any word when the judge will announce his decision?

[Pete]

He had said sometime after the 4th, but that's all we know.

[soonerwilliam]

Judge has ruled! Bus station is gone........

[gopokes88]

Judge has ruled! Bus station is gone........

Not surprising

[bombermwc]

Let me get the keys and i'll go start up the dozer.....let's get this pig kicked!!!!

[Just the facts]

Now all Devon needs is higher-profit oil.

[PhiAlpha]

Now all Devon needs is higher-profit oil.

As do all energy companies, but Devon did not need higher profit oil to build the Devon Energy Center back in 2008/2009 which was a much more ambitious project started when oil prices were lower than today ($40/bbl in the months leading up to construction) and the economy as a whole was much worse. I seriously doubt that is a concern right now as it pertains to funding for this project.

[G.Walker]

Judge rejects Oklahoma City councilman's bid to save Union Bus Station | News OK

[Spartan]

As do all energy companies, but Devon did not need higher profit oil to build the Devon Energy Center back in 2008/2009 which was a much more ambitious project started when oil prices were lower than today ($40/bbl in the months leading up to construction) and the economy as a whole was much worse. I seriously doubt that is a concern right now as it pertains to funding for this project.

They did that back when they were in legit Class C digs. Not a hard sell to their board of directors who must look out for their investors first and foremost. Now they are doing so from legit Class A digs, and proposing even more overhead at a time when their overhead costs are attracting more investor scrutiny. Don't underestimate the importance of that. Devon is doing this project on the cheap because they can not get away with building another first-class development right now. That's a good way to get Carl Icahn'd.