BOK Park Plaza

[jn1780]

That one little box could on the southwest corner of the parking garage could very easily turn into a big display box when the tower is completed. A Subway would have a hard time fitting in there.

[Urbanized]

As I've stated a ways back in this thread, I believe it's simply because Nichols wants to be able to look at his little glass kingdom: Devon, Myriad (which was the focal point for Devon), and now this tower...

The cartoonish vilification of Larry Nichols on this board is beyond silly sometimes. Am I personally in love with this design? No. But the motives that are assigned to him by people who don't know him and have probably never even met him are outrageous.

Also, I can tell you that Boulder doesn't work for Devon, or even in the energy sector. For the record.

[TU 'cane]

The cartoonish vilification of Larry Nichols on this board is beyond silly sometimes. Am I personally in love with this design? No. But the motives that are assigned to him by people who don't know him and have probably never even met him are outrageous.

Also, I can tell you that Boulder doesn't work for Devon, or even in the energy sector. For the record.

I don't believe I've vilified Mr. Nichols to the extent of others, he certainly has contributed much to the city and we should all be thankful for that.
Saying he wants a glass kingdom probably isn't too far off base considering what has been done. Despite this being a Hines project, Nichols's fingerprints are all over it.
And if you see the layout of downtown once this is complete, Devon will have it's own little area of the CBD looking South, and that's why I refer to it as a "kingdom" because it will be the demarcation of new vs. old.
BOK may be the main tenant of this new tower, but, Devon is really holding the reins.

Lastly, I know someone very close to me who believes in the mantra of "if you've never met him; never smoked it; never tried this or that, you have absolutely no opinion on the subject."

I find that silly, and while it may hold merit for a variety of things, and I could certainly agree to some, the fact that I simply may have not met Mr. Nichols personally, thus rendering my ability to make any mention of him, or hold any opinion, is silly and counter intuitive to discussion.

[soonerwilliam]

Thank goodness for Devon and Larry Nichols! Stop the bashing!!!

[Urbanized]

I never said you (or anyone else) didn't have a right to have an opinion on him or on his output, but the posts routinely made here pretending to know what is in someone else's head are ridiculous.

[TU 'cane]

I never said you (or anyone else) didn't have a right to have an opinion on him or on his output, but the posts routinely made here pretending to know what is in someone else's head are ridiculous.

Indeed they are, but, it's an Internet forum, what do you expect?

Before this derails any further and Pete deletes everything, back on track:

So trying to recall, are we anticipating the judge's decision today?

[gopokes88]

2 things.

1) Devon Tower itself has parking under it.
2) LN wants to put the convention center underground. I guess that isn't a cost concern since it is taxpayer money.

Oh look your facts are wrong again.

[BDP]

I see what you're saying, but let's be real. The CC will be just a level below ground, while this 499 address would be multiple levels below ground - with a large building on top of it. I think the water is more of a concern for the latter.

That's true and I hope that the difference in depth makes it okay, but I've owned two houses with basements in Oklahoma and I can tell you that there will have to be some significant resources put towards water management no matter where they put it, because when it rains like it did last month, you can't even keep a residential basement dry. Water always seems to find a way.

[BDP]

As I was reading I kept wondering why the city attorneys keep arguing about parking underground. If Hines wants them above ground then fine, but build the tower on top of the parking. As has been shown most every major city does this and I seriously doubt it would add much cost especially compared to going underground.

The interesting thing too is that, while it may increase the cost to build the parking under the building, I'm sure that increase could be offset by the return they'd make on developing the rest of the block. Personally, I'd rather see them just move it to a lot that already has the space for this, but, really, you could put three of these on this block if you put parking underneath the building. As it is now they are basically keeping 60% of the land they invested in from ever being fully developed.

[Stickman]

Ask the people in 420 W Main if they have any water problems due to heavy rains and the water table their. I can assure you they do

[BDP]

You know, maybe if they just bought what they needed for 499 and only 499, they'd be able to "afford" to put the parking under it and leave the rest of the stuff alone.

If he paid 6.2 million per acre, that's what, like 9 million dollars for the land to build the parking garages? I don't know if anyone knows how much it would cost to put the garages under the building, but that seems like a decent opportunity cost to not get more out of that land.

That's why I sometimes question whether this really is about money, because someone is losing out on some serious opportunity here, especially if this really is one of the most valuable blocks in all of downtown Oklahoma City.

[Pete]

So trying to recall, are we anticipating the judge's decision today?

No.

He said up to 10 days for him to give a decision.

I believe they'll take a field trip to the bus station today or tomorrow.

They've already had their closing arguments today, so the courtroom part of the trial has concluded.

[onthestrip]

The interesting thing too is that, while it may increase the cost to build the parking under the building, I'm sure that increase could be offset by the return they'd make on developing the rest of the block. Personally, I'd rather see them just move it to a lot that already has the space for this, but, really, you could put three of these on this block if you put parking underneath the building. As it is now they are basically keeping 60% of the land they invested in from ever being fully developed.

Ive been thinking the same. Spend a little more on having the garage at the base of 499 and you have a large desirable piece of ground to develop as well.

[sooner88]

Ive been thinking the same. Spend a little more on having the garage at the base of 499 and you have a large desirable piece of ground to develop as well.

How much longer would it take to build the garage under the building vs. a stand alone structure? It seems like the driving factor behind this is Devon's need for space (and parking) which may be (one of) the reasons they are avoiding the underground parking and TIF route.

[Pete]

I was mistaken about taking a trip to tour the bus station... The judge and attorneys actually did that this morning.

[baralheia]

How much longer would it take to build the garage under the building vs. a stand alone structure? It seems like the driving factor behind this is Devon's need for space (and parking) which may be (one of) the reasons they are avoiding the underground parking and TIF route.

I'm not sure on the timeline, but do keep in mind that putting parking under the building does not immediately equate to underground parking - the parking is instead integrated into the base of the structure above-ground. In Post 1214, Kerry posted pictures of buildings that have parking configured this way. This would likely be the only way to make parking under the building work well within OKC's CBD, thanks to the high water table.

[David]

Yeah, the underground parking is a bit of a red herring (possibly started by my mention of Maywood Phase II yesterday), Ed's proposed alternative simply has the parking above-ground with the tower stacked on top of that.

[sooner88]

I'm not sure on the timeline, but do keep in mind that putting parking under the building does not immediately equate to underground parking - the parking is instead integrated into the base of the structure above-ground. In Post 1214, Kerry posted pictures of buildings that have parking configured this way. This would likely be the only way to make parking under the building work well within OKC's CBD, thanks to the high water table.

Good point. It seems like it would be beneficial to both parties if the parking was built underneath 499 and the property was developed for another project. The property value vs. the additional expense for the parking seems like it would offset

[BDP]

Good point. It seems like it would be beneficial to both parties if the parking was built underneath 499 and the property was developed for another project. The property value vs. the additional expense for the parking seems like it would offset

... and maybe even make the developers more money.

... and have more ground if Devon or BOK want another one (though there may be some stuff left for them to tear down somewhere else that they have their eye on. )

[onthestrip]

How much longer would it take to build the garage under the building vs. a stand alone structure? It seems like the driving factor behind this is Devon's need for space (and parking) which may be (one of) the reasons they are avoiding the underground parking and TIF route.

You dont have to go underground. You can make floors 2-7 the parking garage and offices on top.

[BDP]

It seems like the driving factor behind this is Devon's need for space (and parking) which may be (one of) the reasons they are avoiding the underground parking and TIF route.

It has to be, right? There really is no other reason to do it this way. The only thing being considered is operational needs. Not the return on investment in the land or the development. I think Preftakes must just feel happy about being a part of it and will take what he can get, so he's willing to do whatever the tenants want, even if that means forgoing a lot of potential revenue on the 60% of his land he's turning into parking. The tenants don't seem to care what happens to the block and Preftakes gets a big payday in a proxy role that he is lucky to have been given.

[Just the facts]

The City itself should want more density on the block for no other reason than it expands the tax base without having to expand the infrastructure.

[Spartan]

2 things.

1) Devon Tower itself has parking under it.
2) LN wants to put the convention center underground. I guess that isn't a cost concern since it is taxpayer money.

Aside from Pete's fact check, but the overarching reality is that oil and gas is hurting. Devon can't be doing another first-rate project right now.

[DenverPoke]

You dont have to go underground. You can make floors 2-7 the parking garage and offices on top.

Hines just recently broke ground on this here in Denver. Floors 2-13 are parking, 14-40 office. I think they did a nice job with the facade, but obviously at least some underground parking would've been preferred.

[soonerguru]

I now know what Pete was talking about when he criticized the knee-jerk boosterism of OKC deciders. If you're not a "team player," you're labeled as "hostile to development." Um, no. This city has improved enough -- and Devon and others have helped in this regard -- that we shouldn't settle for "cheap and crappy." It's OK to be opposed to this. Anyone with even a modicum of understanding recognizes that stuffing another parking garage across from another on a key, prime, high profile block is an indefensible joke. Pointing that out is good.

People who think this discussion is out of bounds have never lived in a real city, where they argue over the placement of trees and light posts. People argue over such seemingly trivial things because those places are valued, have value, and are worth fighting for. I believe OKC may someday be a place in which developers strive to make our city a better, more thriving place, and a place in which discussions about the impact of developments are welcomed because developers want to do the best they can to improve our city, not just appease the whims of powerful individuals.

I love what Devon has done for OKC, but this is a bad development. It is bad for OKC, and the citizens are not stupid enough to be snowed by the weak arguments made to support this development. Observing the situation, it appears that people are intimidated to voice their obvious displeasure with this unfolding catastrophe. Why?