BOK Park Plaza

[Architect2010]

Hines and PC did what they were told and nothing else. Period.

Now, it will be up to the judge to determine if OKC violated their charter in determining to demolish historic buildings vs. a better use of the block. It is very clear that OKC sat on their blank-blanks and let this slide through, similar to the Stage Center, in the name of business first. But by law, the city has to put the citizens and taxpayers of OKC first and if you are deciding historic value then you'd better not just slush proposals through.

I'd argue that the city should have sought competing proposal or at least architect(s) to come up with ideas for the block then bounce them against Hines/PC. See which is better from all pov then make a decision. Apparently, that didn't happen here and like Pete said - now they're being called out on it.

The properties in question are not held by the city of OKC, so how does a city seek competing proposals for something they don't even own? Also, per above comments. It seems the city was never approached for monetary assistance or input on how the design addresses the block and historic structures.

[HOT ROD]

because the city was considering a request to demolish historic properties AND most of those said properties were fully functioning businesses within the last year or two. As stewards for the public, the city should have done more to determine the feasibility argument by Hines/Preftakes. The above should have come up along with the FACT that there is unused space the development could be built in. If the city itself didn't want to perform the analysis then they could have AT LEAST required it of Preftakes or whoever is the developer.

We have alternative analyses all the time here in Seattle, where a big billboard poster goes up on a property and parties are required to submit their desired plans AND alternates. The city then vets and determines the best use. This is also done in Vancouver, not sure why OKC has the rubber stamp approach but it is now being exposed and people are likely demanding the city step up and do a better job.

[krisb]

Perhaps things would change if Shadid wasn't the only council member fighting for good urbanism. Everyone else either doesn't care or is already owned by big business.

[Just the facts]

It costs the company more and these are businesses....

How is it cheaper to build a plaza, than to not build the plaza?
How is it cheaper to build a skywalk, than to not build a skywalk?

[Pete]

How is it cheaper to build a plaza, than to not build the plaza?

The added expense would come from building the office tower above structured parking and renovating the bus station.

There would be additional revenue from the bus station property, though.

[Just the facts]

Well, if we had good urbanism they wouldn't need a parking garage (or at least one near as big). Also, if they got rid of wasted space they could sell it to someone else. Alas, if we didn't subsidize bad urbanism, we wouldn't need to subsidize good urbanism because good urbanism would win-out naturally. I guess in the end we get what we pay for.

[mugofbeer]

^^^^^^^^
Repeated for the 1000th time. JTF, your point was.made long ago. When there is a demand for urbanism in OKC, the market will respond and those open spaces will fill in.

[Just the facts]

You can't fill-in a 50' corporate plaza setback. Granted, a skywalk can be removed, and OKC did remove one several years ago, and hopefully FNC removes another and closes a tunnel.

[hoya]

You know, I'm starting to like Ed Shadid again. I'm sure in like two weeks he'll decide to try and scuttle something I like, but right now he's on my good side.

[Just the facts]

You know, I'm starting to like Ed Shadid again. I'm sure in like two weeks he'll decide to try and scuttle something I like, but right now he's on my good side.

Lol - he is a hard guy to stay mad at.

[Pete]

Shadid is not afraid to confront and shake things up.

Even though you might not agree with him on some subjects, in general that is exactly what more on the City Council should be doing and because they won't, Shadid is often seemingly the lone public voice, although he often gets more behind the scenes support than many realize.

It's best not to make this personal and just judge the issues he raises on their own merits. It's completely wise and prudent to view them all separately rather than writing something off because he opposed something you favored in the past.


I certainly don't agree with him on everything and have told him that more than once. But he stands up and literally puts his money where his mouth is, and I have great respect for that.

I'm sure he's going to end up paying close to $100K just for this lawsuit alone and also completely underwrites some of the town hall meetings.

[BoulderSooner]

Hines and PC did what they were told and nothing else. Period.

Now, it will be up to the judge to determine if OKC violated their charter in determining to demolish historic buildings vs. a better use of the block. It is very clear that OKC sat on their blank-blanks and let this slide through, similar to the Stage Center, in the name of business first. But by law, the city has to put the citizens and taxpayers of OKC first and if you are deciding historic value then you'd better not just slush proposals through.

I'd argue that the city should have sought competing proposal or at least architect(s) to come up with ideas for the block then bounce them against Hines/PC. See which is better from all pov then make a decision. Apparently, that didn't happen here and like Pete said - now they're being called out on it.

A judge is not deciding any of this. They are going to decide is the DDRC and board of appeals followed city regulations. And if those regulation are valid. That's all.

Why would the city seek a different proposal for property it doesn't own. Property rights actually matter. And a committee of smart citizens that followed policy and made a decision on the demo. Which is their mandate

[Spartan]

Ed Shadid had designs completed showing how to save the Union Station by changing the site plan: Shadid prepares for bus station hearing with new design concepts | Red Dirt Report

I like this. Shadid is taking initiative once again.

It drives me crazy when people keep throwin some shade on Shadid. It's immature and counter productive. I can handle when someone I like disagrees with me on one issue (the streetcar). Urban Pioneer is the only poster on here who has any good reason to dislike Ed. The rest of us, time to move on and make amends.

[Spartan]

These changes are not up for debate in any way.

From a few attorneys I have spoken to (for those attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me).

All the court is deciding is if the DDRC (downtown design review committee). And the the BOA (board of appeals) had the right to make the decision they did within the city ordinances. That is all period.

For shadid to win the judge would have to rule that the DDRC can't agree with the demo of "historic" buildings.

The judge is not going to approve a different plan. In any way.


From those I have talked to the alt drawings presentation shadid intends is a total waste of time and money. And this is in every way a losing case

I agree with your assessment of what e judge can rule on, but hopefully the lawsuit isn't the point. Ed has bought a little bit of time to put this together and get this out there. Hopefully an amicable resolution can be reached between Devon/Hines and the community. I know that even though Devon is facing financial constraints this time around, they still want to do the best thing.

Is doesn't cost Devon anymore and gives them a more unique, memorable block. I still would prefer to save the hotel and Auto Hotel but this is something, and Ed has contributed something that can't be ignored.

[HOT ROD]

I like this. Shadid is taking initiative once again.

It drives me crazy when people keep throwin some shade on Shadid. It's immature and counter productive. I can handle when someone I like disagrees with me on one issue (the streetcar). Urban Pioneer is the only poster on here who has any good reason to dislike Ed. The rest of us, time to move on and make amends.

but I would be willing to bet that despite the dislike UP likely applauds and supports Shadid's efforts here. That's class and like others have said I AM glad Shadid is on the council and do weigh his contributions based on merit not prejudice.

[Richard at Remax]

Ed has given plenty of reasons over the years to throw shade at him. This is not one of them

[Spartan]

OKC is a great city full of people with nice Midwestern manners and work ethic... But they need to learn to still like people when they don't ALWAYS see eye to eye. Like him or not, when you have a good cause that nobody else will stand up for, you've got an ear with Ed.

And honestly I am doing a dissertation right now on how we can get better at transit planning FOR investment & development - so you know where I stand on this - but I think we need a (populist/equity) bus advocate to challenge us through this process. Diamonds are born out of pressure. I genuinely appreciate the people in Ohio who make my job more difficult; if everything were easy, everything would be half-assed.

[bombermwc]

if everything were easy, everything would be half-assed.

So very true!

[BDP]

It costs the company more and these are businesses....

That's not really how it works.

The reality is that we really don't know what kind of analysis they did, if any, on the opportunity cost of alternate plans and the relative ROI on different plans. My guess is that they did very little, because that was never their focus or intent. Obviously, this plan does not maximize the potential revenue of the block, but I don't think that they really care about that. This is simply about meeting operational needs. If they wanted to generate more revenue with the land, it would of course cost more, but we have been told this whole block is one of the most valuable in the city. I have a hard time believing that's just because it's the best place for parking garages.

[BDP]

if everything were easy, everything would be half-assed.

And it sure seems like the city makes it easy for things to be half-assed a lot.

[Stickman]

Will we know anything more this Friday?

[Pete]

Will we know anything more this Friday?

The trial is scheduled to conclude either Thursday or Friday.

But what isn't known is how long the judge will take to make his decision. I don't think it will take him longer than the following week, as he's already reviewed most the evidence and told the two sides what he'll be considering and what he has already eliminated as issues.

His decision will likely only be one of two things: 1) Finding in favor of Hines which would allow them to immediately demo the bus station; or 2) Finding in favor of Shadid and sending the matter back to the DDRC for further input and evaluation.

[BoulderSooner]

Except Hines can't be ruled in favor of because they are not the defendent. This is Ed shadid vs the Okc board of ajustment/ddrc. The city and the attorneys they had to hire to fight this lawsuit. This is very much about the cities ability to make judgements on buildings via ddrc /boa. And has wide reaching application. If Ed wins. Pretty much no building would be able to be redeveloped with out fear of lawsuit.

[sooner88]

Except Hines can't be ruled in favor of because they are not the defendent. This is Ed shadid vs the Okc board of ajustment/ddrc. The city and the attorneys they had to hire to fight this lawsuit. This is very much about the cities ability to make judgements on buildings via ddrc /boa. And has wide reaching application. If Ed wins. Pretty much no building would be able to be redeveloped with out fear of lawsuit.

Do you see that as a good or bad thing?

[Pete]

Except Hines can't be ruled in favor of because they are not the defendent. This is Ed shadid vs the Okc board of ajustment/ddrc. The city and the attorneys they had to hire to fight this lawsuit. This is very much about the cities ability to make judgements on buildings via ddrc /boa. And has wide reaching application. If Ed wins. Pretty much no building would be able to be redeveloped with out fear of lawsuit.

The City did not have to fight the lawsuit or hire outside attorneys.

Those were both choices that they made.