Charleston Church

[zookeeper]

Was he on any psychiatric drugs? This is a horrible crime that just is hard to fathom. Senseless deaths.

[jccouger]

If this was a black guy who killed 9 white people mental illness would have not even been brought up in this thread.

I don't care if somebody is "mentally ill" or not, once they make a decision to kill anybody else they are beyond repair & can't function in society & should be put to sleep immediately. This guy has already lived too long after his crime.

I'm not against treatment for mental illness. In fact I think way more should be done before the fact to help these people, but once they cross the line what is done is done & they should face normal repercussions as anybody else would.

[Jersey Boss]

If this was a black guy who killed 9 white people mental illness would have not even been brought up in this thread.

I don't care if somebody is "mentally ill" or not, once they make a decision to kill anybody else they are beyond repair & can't function in society & should be put to sleep immediately. This guy has already lived too long after his crime.

I'm not against treatment for mental illness. In fact I think way more should be done before the fact to help these people, but once they cross the line what is done is done & they should face normal repercussions as anybody else would.

So if someone has a seizure while driving and they plow into a crowd of people, killing 9, should that person be put to sleep as well?

[Teo9969]

I don't want to hijack this thread further so I'll make one last comment and you can have the last word if you so choose. First, the federal/state dichotomy oversimplifies how federalism does and can work where most issues actually derive influence from both levels. Secondly, being around Oklahoma's state legislature, do you really trust states much more? There's also the new phenomenon of conservative, small government state politicians stripping the rights of local communities to make decisions. The binary thinking and that comes from the two-party system, which many Founders warned against, seems a bigger problem to me. We need more, and real, choices in our democracy. The two parties often fail to provide meaningful choices about actionable issues.

I doubt as though we actually disagree about much. I think we need all those things.

And going back to the post that originally started this whole line of discussion:

"No other civilized or advanced country in the world has massacres like this, happening at such a high frequency."

I think we can defend ourselves a little and say that it's a bit of disingenuous argument considering that there only 12 countries in the world with >100,000,000 people and only 5 >200,000,000. Norway had a 77 person mass murder this decade. Germany, U.K., France, Finland have all had these types of mass shootings. How many states have had more than 1, how many have had none?

The point overall is that the US is not really comparable to just about every other country in the world and we face unique challenges that make it hard for our federal government to do anything about the issue.

[jccouger]

So if someone has a seizure while driving and they plow into a crowd of people, killing 9, should that person be put to sleep as well?

What does that have to do with anything I just said?

[adaniel]

If this was a black guy who killed 9 white people mental illness would have not even been brought up in this thread.

I don't care if somebody is "mentally ill" or not, once they make a decision to kill anybody else they are beyond repair & can't function in society & should be put to sleep immediately. This guy has already lived too long after his crime.

I'm not against treatment for mental illness. In fact I think way more should be done before the fact to help these people, but once they cross the line what is done is done & they should face normal repercussions as anybody else would.

This.

Really shocking to me that some people in society cannot admit certain truths that may challenge their worldview. This guy is a violent bigot, pure and simple. He deserves due process, but this much has been established.

Sadly, I have quite a bit of mental illness and addiction issues in my extended family. Yet I cannot remember one of them shooting up a church.

[Jersey Boss]

What does that have to do with anything I just said?

I don't care if somebody is "mentally ill" or not, once they make a decision to kill anybody else they are beyond repair & can't function in society & should be put to sleep immediately.

[jccouger]

I don't care if somebody is "mentally ill" or not, once they make a decision to kill anybody else they are beyond repair & can't function in society & should be put to sleep immediately.

How does a person who has a seizure on a car make a decision to kill somebody? Please, just stop.

[Jersey Boss]

How does a person who has a seizure on a car make a decision to kill somebody? Please, just stop.

The point is that if someone is mentally ill there is a distinct possibility that they aren't rational so what is your justification for executing a person who committed an act that was a result of thinking that is not connected to reality?

[jccouger]

The point is that if someone is mentally ill there is a distinct possibility that they aren't rational so what is your justification for executing a person who committed an act that was a result of thinking that is not connected to reality?

In what way is murder ever rational? In what way is a murderer connected to reality?

[Jersey Boss]

I doubt as though we actually disagree about much. I think we need all those things.

And going back to the post that originally started this whole line of discussion:

I think we can defend ourselves a little and say that it's a bit of disingenuous argument considering that there only 12 countries in the world with >100,000,000 people and only 5 >200,000,000. Norway had a 77 person mass murder this decade. Germany, U.K., France, Finland have all had these types of mass shootings. How many states have had more than 1, how many have had none?

The point overall is that the US is not really comparable to just about every other country in the world and we face unique challenges that make it hard for our federal government to do anything about the issue.

The point about population to number of killings is indeed a good one, but when looking at per capita statistics, the USA is still way outside the bounds.

Chart: The U.S. has far more gun-related killings than any other developed country - The Washington Post
The United States has by far the highest per capita rate of all developed countries. According to data compiled by the United Nations, the United States has four times as many gun-related homicides per capita as do Turkey and Switzerland, which are tied for third. The U.S. gun murder rate is about 20 times the average for all other countries on this chart. That means that Americans are 20 times as likely to be killed by a gun than is someone from another developed country.

[Jersey Boss]

In what way is murder ever rational? In what way is a murderer connected to reality?

Do you see a difference between a guy that murders a store clerk while committing a robbery, or a jealous spouse who murders the other spouse for infidelity, and the guy who murders people because the voices in his head tell him to?

[jccouger]

Do you see a difference between a guy that murders a store clerk while committing a robbery, or a jealous spouse who murders the other spouse for infidelity, and the guy who murders people because the voices in his head tell him to?

Different circumstances & motives, same results. None of those people are fit to ever function with society, and should never be given a 2nd chance & every person who makes that decision to take a life should have theirs taken.

[Teo9969]

If this was a black guy who killed 9 white people mental illness would have not even been brought up in this thread.

I don't care if somebody is "mentally ill" or not, once they make a decision to kill anybody else they are beyond repair & can't function in society & should be put to sleep immediately. This guy has already lived too long after his crime.

I'm not against treatment for mental illness. In fact I think way more should be done before the fact to help these people, but once they cross the line what is done is done & they should face normal repercussions as anybody else would.

Do we know that? As far as I can recall, there haven't been many instances of these types of mass shootings occurring at the hands of a black person. I think mental illness gets brought up because it's one thing to kill one or two people with whom you're very closely associated or with whom you have a major issue. It's quite another thing to indiscriminately take lives of as many people as you can.

Bigotry is obviously a major component of this, but mental illness clearly is as well.

And just as adaniel has quite a bit of mental illness and addiction issues in his family that does not lead to mass killings, I think we all know a fair amount of bigoted people who don't go on killing sprees.

It's a wide variety of issues at play here.

[dankrutka]

Coming back to the thread, even with the mentally ill, cultural paranoia or bigotry can play a huge factor in the direction mental illness takes. During the height of the Cold War I am sure that paranoid schizophrenia manifested itself in Cold War narratives. I have no large-scale evidence to back this up so correct me if I am wrong, but I can think of quite a few examples along these lines. So even if this kid has a mental illness, there is a good chance that he was exposed to, or surrounded with, racism that caused him to turn in this direction. His identification with white-supremacist colonial powers and planning the killing near the anniversary of Denmark Vesey's failed slave revolt indicates that he's studied his history.

Having said that, if this was a black kid then we would have heard half the country uttering "thug" and decrying the black family structure. Instead, with a white kid who literally announced that he was there to kill people because of their skin color, everyone's first go-to seems to be mental illness. I have heard few use the term ""terrorism," which this incident qualifies. There is no condemnation of racism within white communities as there is always criticism of black communities. The narrative of any issues pertaining to race in this country seems to be totally skewed towards blaming black males as representatives of systemic problems and white males as individuals and aberrations. Am I wrong?

[jccouger]

Do you see a difference between a guy that murders a store clerk while committing a robbery, or a jealous spouse who murders the other spouse for infidelity, and the guy who murders people because the voices in his head tell him to?

But I do see your point, every case is different. In some situations, some people have absolutely no control over their actions. Those people are usually easy to spot before a situation gets this out of hand, and those people should be under almost 24/7 surveillance and probably shouldn't be allowed in society anyway.

Besides all that, focused on this ONE case. This guy is NOT "mentally ill" & he should had already had his dick blown off, and then his head.

[jccouger]

Do we know that? As far as I can recall, there haven't been many instances of these types of mass shootings occurring at the hands of a black person. I think mental illness gets brought up because it's one thing to kill one or two people with whom you're very closely associated or with whom you have a major issue. It's quite another thing to indiscriminately take lives of as many people as you can.

Bigotry is obviously a major component of this, but mental illness clearly is as well.

And just as adaniel has quite a bit of mental illness and addiction issues in his family that does not lead to mass killings, I think we all know a fair amount of bigoted people who don't go on killing sprees.

It's a wide variety of issues at play here.

Were all white people who mass killed black people a century ago mentally ill? All the people who participated in the Tulsa race riots were just off their rocker? Give me a break. This guy is a bigot with a clear motive to kill black people. A murderer.

[jccouger]

Do we know that? As far as I can recall, there haven't been many instances of these types of mass shootings occurring at the hands of a black person. I think mental illness gets brought up because it's one thing to kill one or two people with whom you're very closely associated or with whom you have a major issue. It's quite another thing to indiscriminately take lives of as many people as you can.

Bigotry is obviously a major component of this, but mental illness clearly is as well.

And just as adaniel has quite a bit of mental illness and addiction issues in his family that does not lead to mass killings, I think we all know a fair amount of bigoted people who don't go on killing sprees.

It's a wide variety of issues at play here.

Were all white people who mass killed black people a century ago mentally ill? All the people who participated in the Tulsa race riots were just off their rocker? Give me a break. This guy is a bigot with a clear motive to kill black people. A murderer.

[jccouger]

Was Osama Bin Laden just taking crazy pills? I guess we shouldn't have killed him either, because OBVIOUSLY if you conduct mass murder then mental illness is the #1 factor & we should focus on getting him treatment instead of removing him from the planet.

[Teo9969]

Were all white people who mass killed black people a century ago mentally ill? All the people who participated in the Tulsa race riots were just off their rocker? Give me a break. This guy is a bigot with a clear motive to kill black people. A murderer.

I'm assuming you actively chose to ignore the part where I said:

Bigotry is obviously a major component of this, but mental illness clearly is as well.

And, ummmmm…just how far apart are bigotry and mental illness away from each other anyway? I mean, really, especially when we're talking about bigotry of this scale?

[Teo9969]

Was Osama Bin Laden just taking crazy pills? I guess we shouldn't have killed him either, because OBVIOUSLY if you conduct mass murder then mental illness is the #1 factor & we should focus on getting him treatment instead of removing him from the planet.

This is about as silly as Jersey Boss' example about the person having a seizure and killing a family in a car accident.

Can we get examples that are a bit more germane to the discussion.

[jccouger]

This is about as silly as Jersey Boss' example about the person having a seizure and killing a family in a car accident.

Can we get examples that are a bit more germane to the discussion.

It was an intentionally ridiculous statement to counter act the point that any mass murder must include mental illness.

[hoya]

But I do see your point, every case is different. In some situations, some people have absolutely no control over their actions. Those people are usually easy to spot before a situation gets this out of hand, and those people should be under almost 24/7 surveillance and probably shouldn't be allowed in society anyway.

Besides all that, focused on this ONE case. This guy is NOT "mentally ill" & he should had already had his dick blown off, and then his head.

Killing him now in vengeance won't bring anyone back, or keep anyone else alive. Shouldn't we wait to, you know, collect evidence before rushing to execute the person you think did it?

[hoya]

Coming back to the thread, even with the mentally ill, cultural paranoia or bigotry can play a huge factor in the direction mental illness takes. During the height of the Cold War I am sure that paranoid schizophrenia manifested itself in Cold War narratives. I have no large-scale evidence to back this up so correct me if I am wrong, but I can think of quite a few examples along these lines. So even if this kid has a mental illness, there is a good chance that he was exposed to, or surrounded with, racism that caused him to turn in this direction. His identification with white-supremacist colonial powers and planning the killing near the anniversary of Denmark Vesey's failed slave revolt indicates that he's studied his history.

Having said that, if this was a black kid then we would have heard half the country uttering "thug" and decrying the black family structure. Instead, with a white kid who literally announced that he was there to kill people because of their skin color, everyone's first go-to seems to be mental illness. I have heard few use the term ""terrorism," which this incident qualifies. There is no condemnation of racism within white communities as there is always criticism of black communities. The narrative of any issues pertaining to race in this country seems to be totally skewed towards blaming black males as representatives of systemic problems and white males as individuals and aberrations. Am I wrong?

It's too early for me to say on this guy. This just happened today. I haven't even read any articles about it yet -- just seen the headlines. I suspect we'll know more about it as time goes by. It seems clear that there is some combination of mental illness and extreme racism.

I have no problem calling a black gang member who shoots someone during the commission of a crime a "thug". I also have no problem calling a crazy white guy who shoots a bunch of people like this a "psycho". The race of the killer doesn't even matter.

[zookeeper]

It's too early for me to say on this guy. This just happened today. I haven't even read any articles about it yet -- just seen the headlines. I suspect we'll know more about it as time goes by. It seems clear that there is some combination of mental illness and extreme racism.

I have no problem calling a black gang member who shoots someone during the commission of a crime a "thug". I also have no problem calling a crazy white guy who shoots a bunch of people like this a "psycho". The race of the killer doesn't even matter.

I agree with this. After all, they've spent a lot of time in the James Holmes trial looking at his obvious psychiatric troubles. Just seems basic to consider mental illness when something of this magnitude happens. This guy in Charleston was clearly racist and had many issues. It's a fine line. I don't care what color a mass murderer is, you have to look at the suspect's mental state prior to such horrific actions. Including what mind altering psychiatric drugs were in their system. It's no excuse, but many times it IS part of the explanation.