Streetcar

[David]

An update on this is being presented right now to the city council meeting, it just started.

[catch22]

Oklahoma City MAPS 3 streetcar, senior center advance | News OK

[jccouger]

How bad are we going to be railed by the running costs of this rail?

The 10 US metro rail systems that lose the most money per passenger - Business Insider

[LakeEffect]

How bad are going the be railed by the running costs of this rail?

The 10 US metro rail systems that lose the most money per passenger - Business Insider

And, buried at the end, is this (emphasis added):

"Like roads, mass transit is not self-sustaining: It requires a combination of user fees and other government funding to pay for operations, maintenance, and expansion.

But according to THP’s Melissa S. Kearney, Brad Hershbein, and Greg Nantz, there is plenty of evidence that suggests government subsidies for transit might be justified: Development of transit stations has been linked to higher land values, higher office rents, and lower office vacancy rates. Mass transit also alleviates congestion for drivers. For example, a strike by Los Angeles transit workers that temporarily shut down service in 2003 resulted in a 47% increase in highway delays.

Read more: http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/brookings-now/posts/2015/06/ten-us-metro-rail-systems-that-lose-the-most-money-per-passenger#ixzz3cC6Zevrl"

[betts]

How bad are we going to be railed by the running costs of this rail?

The 10 US metro rail systems that lose the most money per passenger - Business Insider

We can always stop government subsidies for roads to save money. We make zero money for their use, unless you count toll ways. The cars on them pollute far more than mass transit, which costs us in healthcare dollars. Trains are also more energy efficient for long-hauling of goods. Lots of reasons we need to spend money on rail instead of roads.

Unless you don't believe in mass transit at all, which you may well not, another plus is that streetcars cost far less to operate than buses.

[David]

Just saw an interesting tweet from the OKC Streetcar account:

Last night, Norman joined Edmond in agreeing to fund the RTA task force. We are on our way to comp bus & rail friends

[Just the facts]

Park and ride lots are counter-productive. I hope the powers that be realize this.

[Teo9969]

Park and ride lots are counter-productive. I hope the powers that be realize this.

They're not counter-productive, they're just not a great use of resources. It ends up being a great deal for downtown, but ends up hurting the suburbs. Obviously if they establish urban centers at each stop, they stand to gain from traffic from OKC, but some suburbs will undoubtedly see it as a nice amenity for their citizens to use to get to work.

[s00nr1]

A stop at Moore Central Park would be excellent as I could easily ride my bike there and catch rail up to downtown. Let's make this happen.

[Just the facts]

They're not counter-productive, they're just not a great use of resources. It ends up being a great deal for downtown, but ends up hurting the suburbs. Obviously if they establish urban centers at each stop, they stand to gain from traffic from OKC, but some suburbs will undoubtedly see it as a nice amenity for their citizens to use to get to work.

If they establish an urban center, like I suggested for Choctaw Town Center, then they wouldn't be park and ride lots. I am sure what they have in mind though is passenger platform in the middle of 20 acres of parking surrounded by a chain-link fence, with 20 evenly spaced blue glowing emergency call boxes.

[HOT ROD]

there isn't a blanket application that works for everyone. Some suburbs are more rural and need a park-n-ride type setup while others are more urbanized and would have a town center or transit center without much parking. I can even see some suburbs with BOTH a town center and park n ride (like Edmond which would have a transit center in its downtown but park n ride in N Edmond and Edmond/N OKC.

I think this is totally fine and a great use of resources; OKC metro has the land we just need to better connect the people. I think it is unrealistic to have local bus serving EVERYwhere in a cost efficient manner, so the cost of living in the suburbs or rural is that you have to drive to the park n ride if you're not on a suburb local bus route feeding the PnR or Transit Center. That's better than having to drive to downtown!!

[dankrutka]

Whenever possible, stops should be either through dense, walkable areas or in areas with the potential to become that. Park-and-rides really are pretty counterproductive. The A-Train/DART from Denton to Dallas is the example of how not to do transit. It's so depressing to realize how much money was wasted and now it's losing money and failing. I constantly want to take the A-Train, but it can never gain enough ridership to run on a frequent enough schedule to be successful.

[Spartan]

Thinking more about connecting Tinker...

Why is it being connected through the Canadian River Million Year Flood Plain (and and a dozen superfund sites)? That's absurd. It's also interesting from the vantage point of State Capital (more jobs than we realize, more accessible, and much closer) vs Tinker (distant, full of security or last mile issues).

Why arent there just SW/SE 29th and NW/NE 23rd laterals that bookend the system? It accomplishes both and picks up thousands more daily riders.

[Spartan]

Whenever possible, stops should be either through dense, walkable areas or in areas with the potential to become that. Park-and-rides really are pretty counterproductive. The A-Train/DART from Denton to Dallas is the example of how not to do transit. It's so depressing to realize how much money was wasted and now it's losing money and failing. I constantly want to take the A-Train, but it can never gain enough ridership to run on a frequent enough schedule to be successful.

It doesn't even go to downtown Dallas. The A Train is the first train in America to not do that.

Transit mode split is all about the last mile. If you have pleasant, walkable streets - people totally want to get rid of the car. Done and done. If your streets are inhospitable, that's going to depress transit ridership no matter what. Rail can overcome that but it HAS to be designed to attract development if suitable development doesn't yet exist.

[HOT ROD]

Spartan, just my guess - likely cost. But those greenfields are also likely easier to redevelop into dense development rather than relying on the existing rather suburban tracts nearby that likely are NOT going to change.

[Teo9969]

Thinking more about connecting Tinker...

Why is it being connected through the Canadian River Million Year Flood Plain (and and a dozen superfund sites)? That's absurd. It's also interesting from the vantage point of State Capital (more jobs than we realize, more accessible, and much closer) vs Tinker (distant, full of security or last mile issues).

Why arent there just SW/SE 29th and NW/NE 23rd laterals that bookend the system? It accomplishes both and picks up thousands more daily riders.

As soon as we get the street car running to Capitol Hill and 23rd/Classen, the bus lines should stop going downtown and simply provide transfer service. You could at that point probably increase bus service on those routes to no more than 20 minutes (and more likely 15). In fact, any bus-service to the NW (005, 007, 008, 010) or to the SW (011, 012, 013, 016, 040) would be obliged to transfer to the street car so as to increase route efficiency. Your frequency on the street car to those locales ought to be every 10/15 minutes.

[Spartan]

I agree that would work very well. I think Tinker might be better served by an express bus or something like that. It could also have a stop that is highly integrated into the MWC Town Center and somewhere in "downtown MWC" and then a straight shot to downtown.

Hot Rod - I think there are too many superfund sites in that flood plain to remediate before any development could happen. Plus the county landfill, a significant oil field, some industry, and several railroads. Realistically that area of town is inhabitable.

[bchris02]

In a low-density city like OKC, park and ride is pretty much the only way light rail is going to happen, at least starting out. I myself would be ecstatic if the commuter rail lines shown above were actually built.

[Spartan]

OKC is weird density-wise... It's kind of a sparsely populated core surrounded by corridors of dense sprawl.

[baralheia]

If the commuter rail lines are indeed put together, I intend to use them for my work commute into downtown - even though I'm only down at I-240. Our traffic isn't bad compared to most other major cities, but it's still something I don't like dealing with... And it doesn't help that I really like trains, too, haha.

Hopefully by that point, I could ride the train into Santa Fe Station, then connect with the streetcar to get over to OUHSC. Here's hoping!

[BoulderSooner]

In a low-density city like OKC, park and ride is pretty much the only way light rail is going to happen, at least starting out. I myself would be ecstatic if the commuter rail lines shown above were actually built.

Park and ride is very commen all over England. And a big part of the Denver metro system

[Just the facts]

Park and ride is very commen all over England. And a big part of the Denver metro system

A station with a parking lot is not a 'park and ride'. You would be hard pressed to find a train station in England that didn't have urban density adjacent to it. Where is the urban density on Tecumseh Road?

[Spartan]

Kerry - go check it out. There Hillsdale Bible College, Hey Day's, a Life Church thing, Andy Alligator's, a car dealership, Moore Norman Regl Hospital, the Natl Guard armory, and a lot of jobs (York Intl/Johnson Controls, others) and neighborhoods.

Tecumseh Road is as good as any other sprawl. It succeeds on having all the elements and none of the place.

[David]

If they put a park-n-ride at Tecumsah, that would be close enough to me that I would probably experiment with biking over and riding the commuter rail up into the city. Well, assuming that a bike is something I could bring onto the train, that seems like an important detail.

[Spartan]

Cool old renderings of what a station could look like: