Downtown grocery

[zookeeper]

I think one of the disconnects in suburb vs downtown grocery proximity is that for many people, when you think of downtown living, one of the benefits would be carless (or reduced) living and car dependency. So something 2-5 miles away is a bigger deal. Improved public transportation will help there, as does the ability to order groceries for delivery (there are at least 2 services right now, maybe more). It's 100% doable, just like it's 100% possible to live car free in OKC. But it's not as easy as it is in other cities.

Well said. That really sums it up right there.

[Pete]

The situation downtown is already better than the 'burbs, in that you have Native Roots which is within walking distance of thousands of residences, then you have the Homeland on Classen, which sucks but is still much closer to most the downtown housing than almost everywhere in the suburbs.

Plus, in the longer term there will almost certainly be a full-line grocery in Midtown and even before that happens it's quite likely something like Sprouts will go in near 4th & EKG and likely with a Walgreens. And when the streetcar is implemented, almost all of downtown will then be connected to all these amenities.

So, it's already better and will soon get much, much better.

And frankly, if you wait to move downtown until such things like this are fully realized, then plan on paying a lot more money to do so.

[Teo9969]

I'm just sad that we don't adopt a smaller approach to these things. With the geographical size of downtown, we should eventually have like 6-10 different grocers, about 1/4 of which are full-service grocers another 1/3 limited-service and the rest specialty.

[bchris02]

I'm just sad that we don't adopt a smaller approach to these things. With the geographical size of downtown, we should eventually have like 6-10 different grocers, about 1/4 of which are full-service grocers another 1/3 limited-service and the rest specialty.

I think that could eventually happen once there is enough people living downtown to support it. There will probably eventually be 2-3 full service grocers (Uptown Market, Sprouts, Walmart Neighborhood Market) and a few more limited service grocers. I think downtown is quite a ways off from suffice population to support that however. One worry I have is that once the bigger grocers come in, that will be it for the limited service ones like Native Roots. Do you think as it stands today, downtown OKC has enough people to support an Uptown Market, Sprouts, and Native Roots? Do you think it will within the next five years?

[Teo9969]

As far as Native Roots go, unless the large grocer goes in Deep Deuce or North Bricktown, Native Roots will be fine, especially once Steelyard, Mosaic, and Maywood II open.

I don't know grocery store demographics, but I'd guess to support an Uptown Market, Sprouts, and Native Roots, you will probably need near 20,000 people, and those markets would need to be spread out. Maybe one at 10th/Walker, one on Main/Dewey and Native Roots.

And no, not within the next five because West Downtown is not 5 years away from being at critical mass. Midtown will be ready for full service in the next 5 years.

[HOT ROD]

i like your thoughts Teo, those locations sound just about right. Now add in a full service grocer not named Homeland or Walmart in Midtown and a pharmacy in Bricktown and an urban Target (or even Walmart) in the expanded CBD - then the downtown market would be well served and equally well distributed!

[musg8411]

As far as Native Roots go, unless the large grocer goes in Deep Deuce or North Bricktown, Native Roots will be fine, especially once Steelyard, Mosaic, and Maywood II open.

I don't know grocery store demographics, but I'd guess to support an Uptown Market, Sprouts, and Native Roots, you will probably need near 20,000 people, and those markets would need to be spread out. Maybe one at 10th/Walker, one on Main/Dewey and Native Roots.

And no, not within the next five because West Downtown is not 5 years away from being at critical mass. Midtown will be ready for full service in the next 5 years.

I think you are leaving out HH, mesta park, paseo, classen ten pen, etc who would all drive to midtown for quality grocery.

[zookeeper]

I think you are leaving out HH, mesta park, paseo, classen ten pen, etc who would all drive to midtown for quality grocery.

But it goes back to what jerrywall said in his post. For many, that defeats the whole point. You could live anywhere and drive to the grocery store. For many, the appeal of downtown life is the walkability and amenities all being right there. I do agree with you about that being an attractive option for now, but the real downtown urban vibe is going to be found not driving anywhere for the basics.

[Urbanized]

Something to strive for, but it was being falsely positioned as currently being worse than the suburbs, and cited as a reason to not live downtown. That is an absolute falsehood, just like the "15 minute drive" narrative. Can it one day be the true urban experience? Of course. And it will. But the other thing is a red herring.

[bchris02]

But it goes back to what jerrywall said in his post. For many, that defeats the whole point. You could live anywhere and drive to the grocery store. For many, the appeal of downtown life is the walkability and amenities all being right there. I do agree with you about that being an attractive option for now, but the real downtown urban vibe is going to be found not driving anywhere for the basics.

Even if you have to drive to the grocery store, there is a difference between having to drive 2-5 miles and having to go a mile or less with the latter being much more acceptable in a city like OKC. Having a full-service grocery store in Midtown will satisfy that need. Downtown OKC needs to reach that milestone and will reach it long before downtown population and density is high enough for NYC-style bodega shopping.

[musg8411]

But it goes back to what jerrywall said in his post. For many, that defeats the whole point. You could live anywhere and drive to the grocery store. For many, the appeal of downtown life is the walkability and amenities all being right there. I do agree with you about that being an attractive option for now, but the real downtown urban vibe is going to be found not driving anywhere for the basics.

Right, I moved from mesta to downtown for this reason. My point was that midtown could support a full grocer now due to all the surrounding neighborhoods.

[zookeeper]

Even if you have to drive to the grocery store, there is a difference between having to drive 2-5 miles and having to go a mile or less with the latter being much more acceptable in a city like OKC. Having a full-service grocery store in Midtown will satisfy that need. Downtown OKC needs to reach that milestone and will reach it long before downtown population and density is high enough for NYC-style bodega shopping.

That's true, no question.

[Urbanized]

Even if you have to drive to the grocery store, there is a difference between having to drive 2-5 miles and having to go a mile or less with the latter being much more acceptable in a city like OKC. Having a full-service grocery store in Midtown will satisfy that need. Downtown OKC needs to reach that milestone and will reach it long before downtown population and density is high enough for NYC-style bodega shopping.

You've changed your argument to mesh with reality. On the previous page you were saying it was a 15 minute drive to a grocery store, and that is why you couldn't justify moving downtown.

[bchris02]

You've changed your argument to mesh with reality. On the previous page you were saying it was a 15 minute drive to a grocery store, and that is why you couldn't justify moving downtown.

I have not changed my argument. The 15 minute drive isn't far from the truth unless you want to shop at the 18th and Classen Homeland. The drive time may be exaggerated by a few minutes depending on where downtown you live but a quick Google Maps search estimates it to be an 11 minute drive from the Aloft Hotel in Deep Deuce to the Wal-Mart at NW 23rd and Penn (that could easily become 15-20 minutes at 6PM). If you want to shop at Whole Foods its going to be more than 15 minutes under normal traffic conditions. That may be slightly more or less convenient depending on where in the suburbs you are comparing it to, but part of the reason for living downtown and taking on the increased cost of living is to be in a compact urban environment with easy access to amenities, preferably in a walkable setting. Downtown OKC isn't there yet and I stand by that. That doesn't mean it won't be five years from now.

[no1cub17]

I have not changed my argument. The 15 minute drive isn't far from the truth unless you want to shop at the 18th and Classen Homeland. The drive time may be exaggerated by a few minutes depending on where downtown you live but a quick Google Maps search estimates it to be an 11 minute drive from the Aloft Hotel in Deep Deuce to the Wal-Mart at NW 23rd and Penn. If you want to shop at Whole Foods its going to be more than 15 minutes under normal traffic conditions. That may be slightly more or less convenient depending on where in the suburbs you are comparing it to, but part of the reason for living downtown and taking on the increased cost of living is to be in a compact urban environment with easy access to amenities, preferably in a walkable setting. Downtown OKC isn't there yet and I stand by that. That doesn't mean it won't be five years from now.

Strongly disagree. How is downtown OKC not there yet? It's absurd how many more options we have now, even compared to a year ago. And Whole Foods is definitely not 15 minutes from DD. Sure if you try to go between 5 and 6 PM it'll take night and day, but any other time? I can usually make it there in 10 minutes. That's a heckuva lot less time than most parts of Edmond.

[sooner88]

I have not changed my argument. The 15 minute drive isn't far from the truth unless you want to shop at the 18th and Classen Homeland. The drive time may be exaggerated by a few minutes depending on where downtown you live but a quick Google Maps search estimates it to be an 11 minute drive from the Aloft Hotel in Deep Deuce to the Wal-Mart at NW 23rd and Penn (that could easily become 15-20 minutes at 6PM). If you want to shop at Whole Foods its going to be more than 15 minutes under normal traffic conditions. That may be slightly more or less convenient depending on where in the suburbs you are comparing it to, but part of the reason for living downtown and taking on the increased cost of living is to be in a compact urban environment with easy access to amenities, preferably in a walkable setting. Downtown OKC isn't there yet and I stand by that. That doesn't mean it won't be five years from now.

I drive from midtown past Whole Foods every morning at 7:30-8:00 and make it in ~10 min taking Classen. There are so many options within that 10 minute circle. In addition, the traffic here is nothing compared to in Edmond. Also, like Pete said the housing prices are only going to go up once a grocery store does come down here.

[PhiAlpha]

I have not changed my argument. The 15 minute drive isn't far from the truth unless you want to shop at the 18th and Classen Homeland. The drive time may be exaggerated by a few minutes depending on where downtown you live but a quick Google Maps search estimates it to be an 11 minute drive from the Aloft Hotel in Deep Deuce to the Wal-Mart at NW 23rd and Penn (that could easily become 15-20 minutes at 6PM). If you want to shop at Whole Foods its going to be more than 15 minutes under normal traffic conditions. That may be slightly more or less convenient depending on where in the suburbs you are comparing it to, but part of the reason for living downtown and taking on the increased cost of living is to be in a compact urban environment with easy access to amenities, preferably in a walkable setting. Downtown OKC isn't there yet and I stand by that. That doesn't mean it won't be five years from now.

How far is native roots from Aloft? And I call BS on15 minutes to Whole Foods. It's at most 10 from nearly anywhere downtown under normal traffic conditions, especially the east side of downtown. If it takes longer at 6:00 I have a pretty easy solution...don't go at that time...if you really need something right at 6:00, go to native roots or homeland. Your original argument was that living downtown was less convenient than living in the suburbs because of grocery store proximity and that is simply not true. At any rate, those of us that live down here don't find it near as inconvenient as you seem to think from the outside looking in.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^
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[Teo9969]

No doubt downtown could handle 1 full service grocery store right now. Would love for one to plop down where Brown's Bakery is.

[Rover]

Just curious if there is an actual market feasibility study out there showing verifiable demand, or just anecdotal and opinion evidence? Maybe it is in a study somewhere and I've just missed it.

[Anonymous.]

If a grocer such as Sprouts (or any 'shopping cart' grocer) goes in anywhere near DD [EKG/4th or on NW corner of 4th/Walnut] in the next 5 years, Native Roots will die. Book it. I can see the current NR location becoming a more convenient store type of place... Beer, smokes, snacks. Or even a liquor store, honestly.

[bchris02]

Just curious if there is an actual market feasibility study out there showing verifiable demand, or just anecdotal and opinion evidence? Maybe it is in a study somewhere and I've just missed it.

I think that is a good question. I think market realities both downtown and in OKC as a whole have worked against the downtown area getting a store. At the time of the 2010 census there were only 5,000 people living downtown which doesn't look good to prospective retailers. Now given the poor quality of existing grocers in the urban core south of NW 50th, something like an Uptown Market in Midtown would likely have draw and would be more successful than the numbers would suggest. Still, business is business and like what is commonly brought up in the OKC vs Tulsa retail discussion, retailers have a proven formula they go by to determine where will be successful and generally stick to it unless they are given extra incentives.

[OKCRT]

That site used to be Clydes Grocery Store I believe. IMO somewhere along 10th street who be an ideal location for a full service grocery store. Draw from downtown and midtown and you would have plenty of customers.