Biker shootout in Waco

[jerrywall]

I'm surprised no one started a thread about this yet. Personally, even though I'm a long time rider I've very intentionally avoided MC interaction or participation. I know several folks who are patched members and am close friends with someone who was an officer in a local MC.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/19/us...-shooting.html

What's especially shocking to me is the shear scope of this incident. I'm hoping this doesn't cause ripples and have consequences throughout Texas, and even in Oklahoma.

I imagine local police forces may start changing how they interact with club members to try to avoid something like this happening here.

[Motley]

What I am surprised about is how many issues seem to arise in Waco. Is it coincidence or is there something that attracts negative events to Waco?

[Urbanized]

I think it was mostly a beef between Bandidos, who pretty much claim Texas, and the Cossacks, plus the Scimitars, who are Cossacks supporters. The Cossacks are another longtime Texas club and I think that is a long-running feud as they won't give way to the Bandidos. My question is whether or not there are Cossacks/Scimitars in Oklahoma..? I've never seen them, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I mostly see Bandidos and Outlaws around here, at least when it comes to 1% clubs.

I can tell you this though, the media is portraying the event that precipitated this as a "club meeting," but honestly I think it was just a bike night, which the OKC Twin Peaks locations also feature. In fact I saw an aerial of the scene, and the setup was nearly identical. I think the Texas confederation of clubs and independents talks a bit at that Waco meeting about ongoing legislation, bikers' rights stuff and other things that concern all bikers, all very typical of an event like that. It sounds like there was probably just some sort of altercation that sparked the whole thing with two clubs who hate each other. The Cossacks aren't members of that confederation, BTW.

But my point is that - even though I don't think one of the clubs in this beef is active in Oklahoma - the same kind of thing could happen at another bike night if the right mix of people are there and representing. I think if I ran that Twin Peaks bike night I would think strongly about not allowing colors.

What sucks is that lots of people lump "motorcyclists" into one group of people when something like this happens. In the reporting of this event, for instance, they talk about the "5 participating motorcycle gangs" and list the Leathernecks, who are comprised of active-duty and former Marines. I seriously doubt they were involved with the shooting. They aren't considered one percenters, and in fact active-duty military members would be in BIG trouble with their service branches if participating in a 1% club. I think they, like many other bikers, were probably just horrified bystanders in the whole mess (though surely less TERRIFIED than most).

The Range Rover chase in New York is another example of a few bad apples making the whole group look bad. Heck, even in Bricktown a few years ago they banned a really cool scene that was emerging on the ballpark plaza on weekend nights after a few sportbikes wheelied down Mickey Mantle and the police couldn't catch them. The result? ALL BIKES were banned from the ballpark plaza.

[jerrywall]

Yeah, I was incredulous at the claim that this was a CoC type meeting, since I know in Oklahoma these meetings are private and would assume the same to be true in Texas.

[BBatesokc]

I just find it head-shakingly ridiculous that grown men go out in public in their matching little costumes and fight over some imaginary 'turf.'

I think they've seen one too many episodes of Son's of Anarchy.

Thugs and criminals is all they are. I hope the feds drop the hammer on them and take everything they've got - including their freedom.

I say this as the relative (nephew) of a lifelong biker felon who I once thought was pretty cool when I was al little kid. But as soon as I matured I realized what a joke he was. The problem was that he left a wake of personal destruction in his path.

[jerrywall]

Well, I wear full leathers and a vest when I ride. I know plenty of folks who are members of riding clubs or groups. I don't see a need to mock what they wear.

Mocking what they do however, is a totally different thing ...

[bradh]

I'm not a biker but have a couple employees who are really in to it, really involved with the downed bikers group. I hate that something like this tarnishes their group.

[Urbanized]

I just find it head-shakingly ridiculous that grown men go out in public in their matching little costumes and fight over some imaginary 'turf.'

I think they've seen one too many episodes of Son's of Anarchy...

Don't kid yourself. This was probably about business. As in...$$$$$$

[Urban Pioneer]

Heck, even in Bricktown a few years ago they banned a really cool scene that was emerging on the ballpark plaza on weekend nights after a few sportbikes wheelied down Mickey Mantle and the police couldn't catch them. The result? ALL BIKES were banned from the ballpark plaza.

Yep. I was in that group. Very disappointed in the cops overreacting.

[jerrywall]

Are you talking about being able to park up on the bricks?

[Hollywood]

I think it was mostly a beef between Bandidos, who pretty much claim Texas, and the Cossacks, plus the Scimitars, who are Cossacks supporters. The Cossacks are another longtime Texas club and I think that is a long-running feud as they won't give way to the Bandidos. My question is whether or not there are Cossacks/Scimitars in Oklahoma..? I've never seen them, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I mostly see Bandidos and Outlaws around here, at least when it comes to 1% clubs.

You most likely won't see Cossacks around Oklahoma as they are a Hells Angels support club and the HA won't come into Oklahoma based upon an understanding with the Bandidos.

You will see Bandidos, Outlaws and Mongols along with their support clubs in Oklahoma.

[BBatesokc]

Well, I wear full leathers and a vest when I ride. I know plenty of folks who are members of riding clubs or groups. I don't see a need to mock what they wear.

Mocking what they do however, is a totally different thing ...

I get your sensitivity to my comments, but, the matching costumes is central to this sort of thug/gang/club mentality.... Had this shootout been between Crips and Bloods and I replied with the same comment (it would apply equally in both cases) I'm guessing you wouldn't have felt an urge to post the response you did because it wouldn't have hit so close to home.

Whether it be middle aged men in their matching little denim/leather vests or youth in their matching red or blue.... when you put many of them together and their groups collide (or heaven forbid someone 'disrespect their colors' they become mindless billy badasses and societal turds.

All of them? Probably not. And even individually many are probably just fine. Its just some sort of social retardation that occurs when they get together in a group. I've even seen it with biker 'clubs' (aka, gangs) that are supposed to be for social good.

But, opinions are most often based on personal experiences and my experiences with grown men playing badass biker is not a positive one. I'm sure other's experiences differ.

[Urbanized]

Are you talking about being able to park up on the bricks?

No, on the concrete plaza/apron in front of the entrance to Coach's (RIP). Actually more in front of the former Hideaway Pizza pass-through window.

[jerrywall]

I guess we should say the same thing about Boy Scouts, Policemen, Shriners, and Brownies.

There's a reason why the oulaw gangs wear a 1% patch. There are great clubs out there like BACA (bikers against child abuse), the Downed Bikers Association, and various police and military riding clubs.

[jerrywall]

No, on the concrete apron in front of the entrance to Coach's (RIP).

Ah, that's what I meant. I thought that was brick there too. Yeah, I remember that and I remember when it went away. It made Bricktown feel less biker friendly.

[Roger S]

I think they've seen one too many episodes of Son's of Anarchy.

If the SoA had been there. The body count would have been way higher.

[BBatesokc]

I guess we should say the same thing about Boy Scouts, Policemen, Shriners, and Brownies.

There's a reason why the oulaw gangs wear a 1% patch. There are great clubs out there like BACA (bikers against child abuse), the Downed Bikers Association, and various police and military riding clubs.

Totally different. Since when have you heard of Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Brownies or Girl Scouts puffing up and playing 'bad ass'? Surprised you didn't throw in Wal Mart Greeters - they all wear matching blue vests!

Those groups you just mentioned don't exist almost solely to perpetuate an image of bikers and gang members.

Cops are a whole other type of 'gang' that's best left for another thread.

I've personally seen the negative sides of both BACA and Fire & Wind - not just the individuals, but how they can act as a group.

I don't recall this shootout being about who contributed the most donated stuffed animals for some charity...... so, the other groups are not really the focus of this thread - beyond the fact the intentionally mimic the look of thugs.

[jerrywall]

So you're probably one of those with the south park mentality about bikers?

Again, 1% is 1%.

[mkjeeves]

From the damage control department...after revoking the Waco location franchise agreement,

Twin Peaks has also indefinitely suspended biker events at its 29 company-owned locations and recommended that the 39 franchisees do the same.

Franchise agreement revoked for Waco Twin Peaks

[Jim Kyle]

Where does HOG fit into the pattern? While I've never been a biker myself, for some 16 years I had a next-door neighbor who proudly drove his SofTail to work each morning that the weather allowed, always in his leathers and with a bandana on his head rather than a helmet. He was the best neighbor I ever had, and all the folk around here agreed with that. A former SEAL who left the service because he didn't like the person he was becoming, he changed my attitude about bikers forever. As always, it's the individual rather than the stereotype that counts.

There's a very good reason for leathers, and it's NOT to conform to a uniform image (although club insignia, of course, IS). One of the primary ways to escape a critical situation (such as when a car's driver doesn't see you and high-speed collision is imminent) is to lay the bike down, and without the leathers, extensive skin loss to pavement burns is guaranteed. Leather resists such abrasion better than anything else.

Gary's jacket did sport a Harley emblem, but that of his wife (who rode the buddy seat) simply had an airbrush image of their cat, no club affiliation at all. I'm sure that Brian saw the ugliest side of the culture, but that's definitely NOT the whole picture.

[Midtowner]

These white people need to take charge of their own community. Stop complaining about police overreaction when folks in your own community can't even be within proximity of one another without opening fire. This is unfortunately a culture of violence which permeates the white community. I mean.. where are the fathers in the families? I fear for the white community in Waco. Unfortunately, the National Guard was unavailable to protect the community from itself due to their need to supervise Operation Jade Helm.

--verifying that the abandoned Wal Mart is not really the opening of a tunnel to Mexico/concentration camp is important work, after all.

[Bill Robertson]

Where does HOG fit into the pattern?

HOG is a riding/owners group. $35 a year (I think it is now) and you're a member. That's a basic difference between HOG, etc. and 1% clubs. A riding/owners club lets anyone that pays the fee in and the 1% clubs you are recruited, invited, go through a year or so of being a prospect and then are allowed to wear colors. Some clubs like BACA, Fire & Wind, and many more like them fall somewhere in between. I have to agree with Brian on this one as to how the in-between clubs can act badly. I was very close to being a full-patched member of an in-between service type club and dropped out because they started wanting to look too much like a 1% club for me.

[BBatesokc]

So you're probably one of those with the south park mentality about bikers?

Again, 1% is 1%.

At least I'm not naive enough to lump them in with Shriners or Brownies. Hmmm, who's being unrealistic?

Look, I get your perspective is different than mine. No biggie.

Funny how that 1% is the overwhelming public stereotype for the other 99%.

FYI - Funny thing is, the 1% you're portraying is actually the 1% definition created by the police and politicians.

The origin of the 1% has nothing to do with being a criminal. It has to do with the 1% that are 'real' bikers and live that life 24 hours a day. I know this because my POS uncle was one.

[mkjeeves]

There's a very good reason for leathers, and it's NOT to conform to a uniform image (although club insignia, of course, IS). One of the primary ways to escape a critical situation (such as when a car's driver doesn't see you and high-speed collision is imminent) is to lay the bike down, and without the leathers, extensive skin loss to pavement burns is guaranteed. Leather resists such abrasion better than anything else.

They come in styles and colors other than bad boy biker black, but you wouldn't conform to the other non-conformers if you wore them.

[Urbanized]

...The origin of the 1% has nothing to do with being a criminal. It has to do with the 1% that are 'real' bikers and live that life 24 hours a day. I know this because my POS uncle was one.

That's not accurate. "1%" came from a statement that the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) supposedly made after the 1947 "Hollister Riot" at an AMA-sanctioned event cast a bad light on motorcyclists in general. The AMA at the time issued a statement saying 99% of motorcyclists were law-abiding citizens and only about 1% were outlaws. The "outlaw" clubs (with no AMA affiliation) started proudly referring to themselves as one percenters.

By the way, the Hollister incident itself was wildly blown out of proportion by the media.