Plow

[Pete]

Are you saying they buyers who have different plans than restoring "historic" buildings are irresponsible?

I could very well be reading that wrong, but wanted clarification

Bad choice of words.

Sometimes demolition for a higher and better use is appropriate.

[gurantula35]

Excuse mine, that's why I asked what kind of point you're making.

It's definitely not political. I guess I'm not really trying to make a point. I'm more just trying to understand all the hate recently with these projects.

We can get back on topic though.

[BDP]

I just have a hard time calling someone irresponsible for doing what they want with the property THEY OWN.

Does this apply to the person who owns the house next to yours?

[Rover]

Responsible or irresponsible (if you are one of them you probably don't like to be called irresponsible, sorry), but there are undeniably varying levels of pride and community understanding exhibited by different property owners.

Our vaunted "corporate citizens" often do not match the level of citizen values exhibited by guys like Richard McKown, Steve Mason, et all whose work is a way of giving back to our community. Devon means well but doesn't realize what they are taking away from us while trying to give back; they do this because they don't engage, consult, and value planning.

I also can't respond for anyone else, as much as others would like my fairly strong views to be a broader strawman to attack. The planners who are trying to work in OKC exhibit (as they must) a more thoughtful approach, whatever that means (I think it means playing the game with Devon).

Spartan, thank you for responding in a non-confrontational, non arrogant way. You have become a great spokesman to push the urban agenda who is able to do so without presenting a divisive or harsh tone.

I think that the fact that OKC is such a young city is both good and bad. Most OKCitians don't believe much here is old enough to be historic. On the other hand, we are so new and there is so little old, we need to preserve ALL we can.

I think the situation in Bricktown has been different. The idea of reclaiming Bricktown and its history started with a PLAN to preserve and protect the character and history, not of a single building at a time, but as a district. Then, the public committed millions and millions of dollars supporting that vision. Automobile Alley has been sold as a district with a need to preserve the character of it. Unfortunately, west Main street and that area doesn't seem to be organized and a group vision isn't apparent to the public. Therefore, a single owner of so much property can wrestle control away and replace the public agenda with their own.

Also, maybe it has been done and has been unsuccessful, but I wonder if there doesn't need to be more one-on-one lobbying and education done with developers and guys like Larry. By the time their self serving plans are done it is very hard to change the momentum. OKC is a small place and the core of movers and shakers is smaller. What can we do to influence them without being adversarial? How can we get them on the same page BEFORE all the self interests are served?

[gurantula35]

I couldnt care less with what my neighbor does to his property

[jn1780]

I couldnt care less with what my neighbor does to his property

You would care if you are trying to sell your house and couldn't get the value you wanted because new neighbors moved in that kept beat up cars in his front yard, added an ugly carport and doesn't mow his lawn. But, maybe you live out in the country where this doesn't really matter.

[gurantula35]

Spartan, thank you for responding in a non-confrontational, non arrogant way. You have become a great spokesman to push the urban agenda who is able to do so without presenting a divisive or harsh tone.

I think that the fact that OKC is such a young city is both good and bad. Most OKCitians don't believe much here is old enough to be historic. On the other hand, we are so new and there is so little old, we need to preserve ALL we can.

I think the situation in Bricktown has been different. The idea of reclaiming Bricktown and its history started with a PLAN to preserve and protect the character and history, not of a single building at a time, but as a district. Then, the public committed millions and millions of dollars supporting that vision. Automobile Alley has been sold as a district with a need to preserve the character of it. Unfortunately, west Main street and that area doesn't seem to be organized and a group vision isn't apparent to the public. Therefore, a single owner of so much property can wrestle control away and replace the public agenda with their own.

Also, maybe it has been done and has been unsuccessful, but I wonder if there doesn't need to be more one-on-one lobbying and education done with developers and guys like Larry. By the time their self serving plans are done it is very hard to change the momentum. OKC is a small place and the core of movers and shakers is smaller. What can we do to influence them without being adversarial? How can we get them on the same page BEFORE all the self interests are served?

I was expecting to get blasted for saying what i said. Thank Spartan for being civil.

[David]

I couldnt care less with what my neighbor does to his property

Either you do, or you don't actually own property. You'd care if they put up extra bright lights shining through your windows day and night.

This is a strawman anyway. Building codes that restrict what property owners can do with the property they own exist and they always will in these sorts of discussions. Claiming that property owners can do whatever they like is nonsense.

Also, Spartan's 150 years ago reference was to slavery. The historical rights of people to own other...let's go with stuff...has long been more complicated than "they own it, they can do what they like".

[Urbanized]

Come on now. Slavery is a terrible and completely irrelevant thing to add to this discussion. Any thinking person today knows that you cannot own people, but few would dispute that you can own land.

The bright lights example is a great one. So is loud music, a nudie club, a meth lab, a hog farm or 10,000 other things your neighbor could do with their property that would diminish the livability and value of your own. It never fails in demolition arguments that someone tries to trot out the idea of absolute property rights, and the fact of the matter is that they do not exist, and are even further from reality the closer one gets to the center of a city and the more neighbors surrounding him.

Codes, ordinances, district design guidelines, all of these are real things. They protect the community, and protect the property investments made by others. They are the law if the land, and in general one agrees to abide by them when purchasing a property covered by them.

[Rover]

Property owners need to look at whatever legal restrictions apply. For instance, a friend of mine bought a home on a golf course here in OKC. As an avid golfer, it was his desire to retire on a golf course and be able to walk down to the clubhouse. Well, the owner of the golf course decided it was more valuable as home sites and tore out the course. After reading the covenants, it was clear the homeowners could not stop the change from golf course to housing. Even though the vast majority of owners adjacent to the course bought homes because of that and would be against its removal, they hadn't read the covenants when they bought. They could not after the fact keep things from happening.

What I am saying is that it is very difficult to claim your right as a neighbor is being denied when in fact there is nothing in law to protect you. You have taken the risk by not changing the laws PRIOR to the proposed changes. The problem we have is in not proactively putting in place the restrictions we need. The more we fight after the fact, the more we lose. We HAVE TO GET AHEAD of the problem and get things changed NOW.

Activism works. But it requires more than internet anger.

[metro]

So without having to read through a bunch of diatribe, are changes being made to The Plow (topic of the thread)?

[UnFrSaKn]

If there was, Pete would likely tweet about it. Other than that, most of what you read on here is diatribe anyway. Follow OKCTalk on Twitter for any real updates.

[metro]

If there was, Pete would likely tweet about it. Other than that, most of what you read on here is diatribe anyway. Follow OKCTalk on Twitter for any real updates.

I have been for years, including contributing new stories and FB as well.

[Spartan]

Come on now. Slavery is a terrible and completely irrelevant thing to add to this discussion. Any thinking person today knows that you cannot own people, but few would dispute that you can own land.

The bright lights example is a great one. So is loud music, a nudie club, a meth lab, a hog farm or 10,000 other things your neighbor could do with their property that would diminish the livability and value of your own. It never fails in demolition arguments that someone tries to trot out the idea of absolute property rights, and the fact of the matter is that they do not exist, and are even further from reality the closer one gets to the center of a city and the more neighbors surrounding him.

Codes, ordinances, district design guidelines, all of these are real things. They protect the community, and protect the property investments made by others. They are the law if the land, and in general one agrees to abide by them when purchasing a property covered by them.

Look, I know slavery is a horrific thing to bring up in a conversation and my intent wasn't shock (that's why I avoided using the word, and referred more to the duration of legal precedence here) - I was just empirically speaking to gurantula's more philosophical point about absolute property ownership. I agree with you, Rover, and David regarding regulations that affect property. There is established legal precedent for zoning, ordinances, taxing districts, covenants, etc. These things are regulated just as they regulate property owners, ie. checks and balances.

Again, just responding to the notion of absolute ownership rights. That is not what "land use by right" means..

[Village]

Taken today, doesn't look like a whole lot has changed since the last pictures.

[betts]

There are people working there right now ( I'm across the street at Starbucks) and pretty much every weekday. It will probably be one of those buildings that is finished quickly once they put in the new windows.

[Pete]

Right, there isn't a lot to do outside other than the windows.

[UnFrSaKn]

Instagram

[UnFrSaKn]

February 14 2015

[ljbab728]

Steve's update with video.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/539...20new%20ground

[dankrutka]

Not a lot of noticeable exterior progress...

[Pete]

Thanks for all the photos, Dan.

New windows should be going in here soon and that's when we'll really see a difference.

[Pete]

More badassery:

OKCTalk - Plow building to add reproduction water tower and sign

[sgt. pepper]

That water tower addition is going to be awesome. That building has always been one of my favorites in bricktown, I am glad it is coming alive.

[Pete]

Because it will be built on a high platform on top of the building, the tower/sign should be highly visible.