KC Star: One and done for OKC?

[CuatrodeMayo]

I was thinking about this issue yesterday. Wouldn't the downtown Sheridan and maybe even the renaissance be structurally stable enough to add floors to it as was originally planned with the Skirvin, etc. I think doubling the size of the Sheridan would be awesome. Maybe with an email campaign and the city's help this could easily be achieved.

The Renaissance definitely no, and the Sheraton probably no. These hotels have structural systems that were designed to just meet the needs of the building as they were originally designed. The building construction in the last 30-40 years has been primarly driven by economics. If the architects and engineers had suggested to Marriott hotels that they design the structure of the Renaissance to be twice as expensive to accomodate some possible future expansion in an area that has plenty of open area on which to build, the would be laughed out of the room. The Skirvin was built in a different time with different values. Buildings were more than just dollars and cents, they were a status symbol and an ego. The taller you could go, the better. And if you can't afford to go taller, you can be ready for when you can.


Like Grandpa says, "they don't build 'em like the used to."

[BDP]

The Courtyard downtown is far nicer than typical ones.

Really? That's good news. I haven't stayed there, but it's stature and decor certainly aren't that impressive. I've been there several times before concerts and games and it didn't impress me as far nicer than most hotels in Oklahoma City, certainly not hotels in most downtowns. It's seems pretty average, but maybe the rooms are nice.

Even if it is a little nicer than other hotels in the city, it still represents a huge missed opportunity given its location.

[HOT ROD]

I too can vouch for the Courtyard. I have stayed there some 5 or so times when I visit the city and I can honestly say it is THE BEST Courtyard I've stayed in.

In reality, you could change the name of it to Hilton or Marriott and the hotel would live up to it. Many big cities have Courtyard Hotels that are full-service, high class venues - Courtyard Chicago comes to mind. And OKC's Courtyard certainly IS in that category.

It is TOTALLY different and MUCH better than the suburban Courtyard hotels and keep in mind - it does have 8 floors (although I agree - it should have been at least 12 storeys tall). It is a true downtown hotel - dont be dismayed by the name Courtyard by Marriott. In fact, most of those located in downtowns (like ours, Chicago, ect) are starting to market themselves as "Courtyard Hotel" and not so much Courtyard by Marriott anymore.

Courtyard Hotels are intended for the business executive to have full services at his beck and call - and OKC's downtown hotel lives up to this. Plus, the inside is rather hip and I'd say it is the hippest hotel in the city. I am not alone in this opinion - check TripAdvisor.com and you will find similar commentary for Courtyard Downtown Oklahoma City.

Also, I almost forgot - the rooms are very nice, new/clean, and certainly executive. Like I've said, I've stayed in Courtyard hotels even the other two in OKC and the one downtown is in a league with Renaissance and Sheraton.

I think Residence Inn will cator more to extended travelers in the mid range but Courtyard bills itself in the same category as Renaissance (which is 4.5 stars by the way) and I think Courtyard does come pretty close having stayed in both as well as the Sheraton.

On a side note, I think we do need to push for several more hotels; a couple of which are large scale convention style and several more that are budget and economy. I disagree about the opinion raised that OKC is not a vacation destination. You guys need to visit travel sites more often, you will see that people are getting to OKC and have some good (and sometimes constructive) things to say - but most have a good time and would return.

While OKC might never become a vacation mecca like Ft Lauderdale - Im not sure OKC is even after that demographic. I think OKC is looking for business and transient destination demographics - in efforts to expand its economy. We're looking for new businesses and residents - so hotels should be priced for those demographics

Here is my take on the downtown Hotel Market positioning:
- boutique - we have but could use more since they are always pretty small,
- luxury - we have but one more couldn't hurt,
- full-service business - we have but need a few more,
- convention - we have one in name but I say we get one or two that are truly with 650+ rooms each
- economy - we need, budget - we need,
- extended stay - we have one but need more),
- suite only - we need,
- SRO - might not hurt to have one.

And like I said, we need to have 3,000 hotel rooms downtown as our next benchmark. We've made 1,500 (or will surpass it with the Hampton Inn and Suites). I also see the need for 500 rooms at the OHC and Capitol campuses each and at least one hotel at the Adventure District.

That would add 1200 or so rooms to the additional 1500 rooms that we'd gain downtown, bringing the total rooms for OKC well above 15,000 rooms; with 3,000+ in core downtown, 4,000+ in expanded downtown including Capitol and OHC/Midtown.

Now that is what goals need to be set for OKC and I think that is achievable. Will 4,000 rooms be filled downtown nightly - probably not, but that is where competition would come in and some of them would lower their prices from time to time (if their market position is not budget or economy normally). And I wouldn't think we'd get any luxury or convention hotel outside of core downtown for the next 10 years (although there might be a possibility of the Capitol for a luxury hotel since it wouldn't compete with core downtown).

[BDP]

dont be dismayed by the name Courtyard by Marriott.

I'm not. Iwas going off my actual visits there, not the name.

Plus, the inside is rather hip and I'd say it is the hippest hotel in the city.

I guess we just disagree on that. I think it felt dated the day it opened, but I do remember hearing that it was going through some renovations. Maybe it's been updated since I last went (I think that was before the Nine Inch Nails show last year, but I may have stopped by on the way to a game since then). I just felt that its design style in the lobby, bar, and restaurant had been done over and over and similar design can be found in some of our nicer McDonald's.

I'm not saying it's bad or not nice. I just wouldn't put it in the "hip" category. That's probably just a casualty of one of the functioning charcteristics of hippness. As Tower of Power said "what's hip today, might become passe". I would say that Courtyard design has become passe.

I do realize that may not be the hippest of references.

[jbrown84]

BDP, you've been in the lobby of the Courtyard and did not find it to be several notches above your typical Holiday Inn/Hampton Inn?

[metro]

BDP, I'm going to agree with you, although nice, and nicer than any Courtyard I've seen. I still think the design is passe. The inside lobby architecture is nice, but the prints used in carpet, paint, etc. are like a cheesy upscale McDonalds print (circa 1990's motif). Think Saved by the Bell gone hipper. I certainly do not think the Courtyard is downtown's hippest hotel, let alone the entire city. I think this bragging right definitely goes to the Colcord hands down.

As far as someone mentioning a hotel or two going up in the adventure district, we definitely need some over there so that area can take off. I read a journal record article today (March 9th's edition) that is proposing a hotel at Remington Park. I'll post more on that later.

[jbrown84]

My dad is a Residency Director for OU Med School and he says over and over again that someone needs to build a hotel in the OHC for visiting Resident prospects, visitors to the PHF, patients, etc.

[HOT ROD]

Well Metro, my comments for hippest hotel was when downtown only had 3 of them and clearly the Courtyard had the title hands down. Also, it was based on my stays there - which the last was April of last year.

I will be returning to the city for this years Festival of the Arts so I will experience the Colcord and probably agree. But to be sure - my hip rating was before Colcord opened.

Im glad you all agree with my suggestion for hotels in the OHC and Adventure district. While I do want downtown to have the most and most concentration of hotels - I think the other inner city areas need at least one as well.

One hotel in the OHC (like an extended stay type) is appropriate. Say Residence Inn Oklahoma City Health Center!
One hotel in the Adventure District is needed, probably two tho (one budget and one midpoint type). Say Holiday Inn Remington Park and Hyatt Oklahoma City Adventure District
One hotel would be nice around the capitol complex, two would be better (midpoint or convention style and budget type), say Oklahoma City Marriott Capitol Hill and Four Points by Sheraton Oklahoma Capitol.

So Im just talking about five hotels (max) right now in the inner city but outside of downtown. That would be what 1200 rooms or so and would provide hospitality options close to downtown but not in downtown.

[jbrown84]

The Colcord is really cool because it has that intangible "hip" cachet. It really compliments the Skirvin because they are both historic but the Skirvin has the classy, wood-paneled, old world style, and the Colcord has the marble walls and floor and wrought iron bannisters. The modern decor goes well with it. It feels very much like something you'd expect to see in a trendy New York neighborhood.

[HOT ROD]

jbrown, I can't wait to stay in it. Im sure it is light years ahead of Courtyard - even just for the simple fact that Colcord is boutique and is in an old building.

Courtyard is new and regardless of the carpet, is also a hip hotel. It certainly was hipper than the other two downtown options I had on my visit last year.

That's something - think how quickly OKC is changing. .. .. we went from numerous downtown hotels down to three (Sheraton, Skirvin, Holiday Inn) down to two down to one, then up to two (Sheraton/Westin and Renaissance) then to three (Courtyard), then to six (add in Colcord, Residence Inn, and Skirvin Hilton). Soon, there will be seven (Hampton Inn and Suites) and hopefully eight (Embassy Suites Downtown OKC).

Hopefully, the hotel momentum will not stop downtown until we have at least 3,000 hotel rooms within 1/2 mile of central downtown; 5,000 hotel rooms within 2 miles of central downtown. At that point, the market would dictate who survives and who could come in next.

[metro]

Well Metro, my comments for hippest hotel was when downtown only had 3 of them and clearly the Courtyard had the title hands down. Also, it was based on my stays there - which the last was April of last year.

I will be returning to the city for this years Festival of the Arts so I will experience the Colcord and probably agree. But to be sure - my hip rating was before Colcord opened.

Im glad you all agree with my suggestion for hotels in the OHC and Adventure district. While I do want downtown to have the most and most concentration of hotels - I think the other inner city areas need at least one as well.

One hotel in the OHC (like an extended stay type) is appropriate. Say Residence Inn Oklahoma City Health Center!
One hotel in the Adventure District is needed, probably two tho (one budget and one midpoint type). Say Holiday Inn Remington Park and Hyatt Oklahoma City Adventure District
One hotel would be nice around the capitol complex, two would be better (midpoint or convention style and budget type), say Oklahoma City Marriott Capitol Hill and Four Points by Sheraton Oklahoma Capitol.

So Im just talking about five hotels (max) right now in the inner city but outside of downtown. That would be what 1200 rooms or so and would provide hospitality options close to downtown but not in downtown.

Actually HOT ROD, I wasn't calling you out on that quote, but making a rather general statement. But since you bring it up, your comment from 8:54pm yesterday (scroll up a couple posts) clearly states that you said Courtyard is the hippest hotel. That sure wasn't with 3 hotels open yesterday, in fact all 6 downtown hotels were open yesterday. Now, if you're stating that you're going off your last experience you were in OKC, then I could buy that, but not saying that you made the comments last year because you obviously said that yesterday. Even having not visited, you should be able to clearly see from the Colcords website and pictures on here that it is way hipper than the Courtyard.

No hard feelings though.

[BDP]

BDP, you've been in the lobby of the Courtyard and did not find it to be several notches above your typical Holiday Inn/Hampton Inn?

Not full service ones. It's probably better than the HIs in the Oklahoma City area, but even those brands do have properties that are just as nice or nicer in other markets. It basically reminds me of your standard full service airport hotel that may have been redecorated since 1992 (well, that is, in terms of decor. Even most airport hotels are bigger).

The good news is that, no matter what one thinks of the Courtyard, it has been surpassed by not one, but two other hotels downtown.

[Prunepicker]

I disagree. Strongly. Many people travel on a budget (cheap air, hotel) precisely because they want to spend money at their destination (restaurants, retail, etc.) and not blow it all on a place to lay their heads for a few hours a day.

And OKC is full full full of places for just that. Upscale is the best way to go. Also, my point is not apples to oranges and is full of validation. Most people like to stay in swanky places and eat the best food. They want to stay where the action is and that costs $$$.

We need to attract people who shell out the dough. That's not elitist it's good business. The more they spend the more revenue the city collects. That's the lesson Ft. Lauderdale learned. If you attract "Average Joe on a Budget" then you'll get a city that's "Average Joe on a Budget".

OKC has been "Average Joe on a Budget" for too long. We have the opportunity to change. Let's learn from Ft. Lauderdale and not wish we had after it's too late.

Prunepicker

[writerranger]

And OKC is full full full of places for just that. Upscale is the best way to go. Also, my point is not apples to oranges and is full of validation. Most people like to stay in swanky places and eat the best food. They want to stay where the action is and that costs $$$.

We need to attract people who shell out the dough. That's not elitist it's good business. The more they spend the more revenue the city collects. That's the lesson Ft. Lauderdale learned. If you attract "Average Joe on a Budget" then you'll get a city that's "Average Joe on a Budget".

OKC has been "Average Joe on a Budget" for too long. We have the opportunity to change. Let's learn from Ft. Lauderdale and not wish we had after it's too late.

Prunepicker

I'm sorry, Prunepicker, I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have real problems with your comparing Ft. Lauderdale and Oklahoma City. People will go to Ft. Lauderdale because of its incredible natural beauty in sand and ocean. Those environments can command expensive resort hotels and get a premium for doing so. Your "Field of Dreams" theory about Oklahoma City (build it and they will come) is pure fantasy. Events will be the primary draw for people visiting Oklahoma City. Affordability in hotel rooms is an asset in the meeting/event planners mind. I want a four-star/five-star hotel as much as anyone, but you apparently see it as an either/or situation and view attracting the rich to Oklahoma City as some simple task if "we" will only build the hotels. That's way too simplistic and would lead to disaster and failure for a market of our maturity. What has happened downtown with all the hotels including the Skirvin and the Colcord, is nothing short of a miracle when one thinks back just 10 short years ago. Saying Oklahoma City has been "Average Joe on a budget," for too long is a good line, but it doesn't match the facts. The major fact being that the rich and glitz of America will not pour into Hyatt and W hotels and fill them up in Oklahoma City just because they're there. The hotels we have are on pace with our growth. To ridicule our current situation is being blinded to where we were just a blink of an eye ago. Ft. Lauderdale could easily make the transition from Spring Break, USA to upscale hotels and resorts by virtue of where they are - Metropolitan Miami. Sun, surf and sand. Period. People aren't showing up at their luxury hotels just because they are there. To quibble and insist that there is a fair comparison between Miami/Ft. Lauderdale and the Oklahoma City metro is (imo) bizarre. That's like comparing Tulsa to San Diego; and insisting if only Tulsa would quit building Courtyards and start building resort hotels they can compete with San Diego. And shame on the "Average Joe" thinking of Tulsa! Build those resorts! Earth to Prunepicker.
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[Prunepicker]

Earth to writeranger. You're are being very difficult. I mentioned nothing about 'build it and they will come' you made it up. Virtually everything you've said I said isn't at all what I said. You recreated my post by adding things I never said, i.e. you put words in my mouth. That's extremely rude.

1. There was no "comparison"whatsoever to Ft. Lauderdale, Miami or any other city except in your imagination. I have no idea how you see any comparison. There IS a lesson to be learned. OKC must think out of the box.

2. Ft. Lauderdale got sick of being Average Joe. They did something about it. They raised their expectations instead of relying upon Average Joe one month out of the year. OKC can do the same thing. We need to sell ourselves big. OKC needs to take the chance. OKC must think growth.

3. OKC has the opportunity to become an art culture. Did you know OKC can't afford a full time orchestra? "Average Joe" might visit once in a blue moon but that doesn't support a symphony. The Reynolds Art Center has great possibilities. The money won't come from "Average Joe". The rich will donate more than Average Joe will spend buying tickets. I makes sense to attract the rich. They invest when they see a good thing. We must attract those with money. "Average Joe" likes to hang around the rich and glitzi.

4. If OKC thinks "Average Joe" then that's what we're going to get.

I was an "Average Joe" businessman. Every year we had a convention in Dallas. When the meeting was in an upscale hotel the attendance was great! Members would come from Kansas City, Denver, Tennessee, Missouri, Texas, New Mexico & Louisiana. When the convention was at an "Average Joe" hotel the attendance was almost non existent. NOBODY wanted it to be in an "Average Joe" hotel. Can you imagine why? "Average Joe" likes to act rich!

Prunepicker

[writerranger]

Prunepicker,

I wasn't "adding words" to any your posts and "being rude." I called it a comparison, you say we can "learn lessons" regarding Ft. Lauderdale. Whatever. I say there's no lessons or comparisons with Ft. Lauderdale/Miami that has anything to do with Oklahoma City. I shouldn't have said, "Earth to Prunepicker." Okay? I'm sorry for that. The continuing references to Ft. Lauderdale were getting old and not applicable to OKC (imo). I think my last post laid out my position perfectly clear. Your last post only shows you still believe in the "Field of Dreams" theory of hotel development. It doesn't work. Ft. Lauderdale is basically a large suburb of Miami. That's the first reason comparing it to OKC is apples and oranges. I won't go on. I found the tone of your posts off-putting anyway when you classify the "Average Joe" and the rich and say we need to go "upscale" and focus on the rich. That is not progressive thinking, it's a prescription for failure. We are not on an ocean with the finest beaches in the world and able to attract resort hotels. If those hotels "should" be here - where are they? Everything else, I reference my last post.

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[Prunepicker]

we need to go "upscale" and focus on the rich. That is not progressive thinking, it's a prescription for failure.--------------

Give us an example where it has failed.

Prunepicker