Will Electronic Signs Cause Edmond to Resemble Las Vegas?

[Of Sound Mind]

Key Health Institute's sign has completely changed my view on this... it is so obnoxiously bright, especially during the dark hours, that it changed me from a proponent to an opponent... or at least now an advocate for strict guidelines. I can only hope that the Edmond parameters are sufficient to prevent eyesores like Key Health's sign (which falls outside of the city limits, I believe).

[Plutonic Panda]

Key Health Institute's sign has completely changed my view on this... it is so obnoxiously bright, especially during the dark hours, that it changed me from a proponent to an opponent... or at least now an advocate for strict guidelines. I can only hope that the Edmond parameters are sufficient to prevent eyesores like Key Health's sign (which falls outside of the city limits, I believe).

while it is Edmond zip code, which is listed on its website, it is not in Edmond city limits. So the sign does not conform to the city code nor does it need to do as it is OKC's jurisdiction.

[jerrywall]

Key Health Institute's sign has completely changed my view on this... it is so obnoxiously bright, especially during the dark hours, that it changed me from a proponent to an opponent... or at least now an advocate for strict guidelines. I can only hope that the Edmond parameters are sufficient to prevent eyesores like Key Health's sign (which falls outside of the city limits, I believe).

Yet Randal Shadid used the proximity of that sign and the shell sign to argue for a variance for the new oncue right there on the Edmond side of 33rd. So the creep is happening. Larger signs, and more obnoxious ones are coming, if we don't stay vigilant.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yet Randal Shadid used the proximity of that sign and the shell sign to argue for a variance for the new oncue right there on the Edmond side of 33rd. So the creep is happening. Larger signs, and more obnoxious ones are coming, if we don't stay vigilant.

The creep is happening. More fear tactics man just stop that crap. The creep is not happening. It's in Oklahoma City limits, not Edmond. If the gas station gets a variance that has literally nothing to do with Edmond's electronic sign ordinance and would happen regardless and it would probably be more likely to happen without standard guidelines for the signs.

[jerrywall]

The OnCue is not Edmond. It got a variance based on the signs on the OKC side of the street (33rd). So now, if I opened a place further North on Kelly, I'd expect a variance on the same basis, so I could compete with the OnCue. Creep.

[Plutonic Panda]

The OnCue is not Edmond. It got a variance based on the signs on the OKC side of the street (33rd). So now, if I opened a place further North on Kelly, I'd expect a variance on the same basis, so I could compete with the OnCue. Creep.

Do you think Edmond would allow that? If they do, I can understand your frustration, but you have to remember, it very well could still be allowed without the current ordinance.

[TheTravellers]

Hey PluPan, there's a garage on the NE corner (kind of, it's north of the storage facility and bank) of NW 150th/May, drive by there sometime at night and watch how bright and flashing their electronic sign is. If I lived across the street (there are houses there), I'd have a serious problem with that sign, it's the kind of sign that the ordinances are against. Glad to see Edmond taking steps to do the right thing...

[RangersYear]

The sign that Travellers speaks of is extremely bright and lights up the backyards of the houses across May Avenue. The owner should supply the residents with a complimentary case of SPF 50.

[Plutonic Panda]

Hey PluPan, there's a garage on the NE corner (kind of, it's north of the storage facility and bank) of NW 150th/May, drive by there sometime at night and watch how bright and flashing their electronic sign is. If I lived across the street (there are houses there), I'd have a serious problem with that sign, it's the kind of sign that the ordinances are against. Glad to see Edmond taking steps to do the right thing...

There is an electronic sign in Grove I think as you're driving to Monkey Island on Grand Lake... it is so bright, you have to slow down because it literally almost blinds you and it takes your eyes a minute or so to readjust. It is absolutely amazing to me that that sign is legal. I think I know the one you are referring to. I have seen a few around OKC and the outskirts of Dallas that are ridiculous, so I can definitely understand where people are coming from.

My beef is, it seems like Edmond's strict regulations preventing signs from flashing, being too bright, too big.. etc. are being overlooked and ignored by people who just simply don't like them no matter what and don't want to see them. My grandmother used to do the same thing with incandescent bulbs. She was just old school and didn't want to use florescent or LED, and I think it is just arrogance more than anything.

I'm willing to bet a very small percentage of the city even knows that this is an issue or that they used to be banned. If I recall, the petition was signed by a little over 1,000 people. There is going to be a special vote sometime in early spring(March or April I think), so how many people would you think are going to show up? Out of all those people, which will probably be less than 10% of the city population and I might even go a step further to say it won't even be 5%. A lot of people who either support the signs or don't care either way won't show up. If the city as a whole decided they didn't want the signs then that's fine, a city should be able to ban electronic signs if the majority of the residents don't want them, but due to what will likely be low-voter turnout, I don't think it is fair.

The thing is, is it a big deal if these signs get banned again? No. It isn't like a business is going to say, I can't get electronic signs so I will not locate in Edmond. Having more options for businesses is still competitive either way you look at it and I think Edmond should have modern laws that include allowing businesses for modern features. I really like electronic signs if they're done right. I think Edmond has done the right thing.

BTW, I hope I'm not sounding argumentative towards you. I just get frustrated with small things like this that go unnoticed by many.

[TheTravellers]

Re: " I just get frustrated with small things like this that go unnoticed by many." - Amen, the devil is in the details. Agree with you pretty much, and low voter turnout to enact something can always have problems, people should be way more educated and care about their community than our voting records show.

As far as CFL lights, they do (or at least used to) suck, I agree with your grandma. Even my ophthalmologist says the light they put out isn't as good for reading as lots of other types of light are. :-P

[Plutonic Panda]

Re: " I just get frustrated with small things like this that go unnoticed by many." - Amen, the devil is in the details. Agree with you pretty much, and low voter turnout to enact something can always have problems, people should be way more educated and care about their community than our voting records show.

As far as CFL lights, they do (or at least used to) suck, I agree with your grandma. Even my ophthalmologist says the light they put out isn't as good for reading as lots of other types of light are. :-P

Yeah it's sad to see the voter turnout numbers. :/

As far as the light bulbs go, I can't say I really disagree with you. LED lights are a nice alternative, but they seem to take awhile to reach their maximum brightness levels. The florescent lights I've also heard can screw up your sleeping patterns since the light is more of a natural color and it can mess with your eyes. I've switched to 100% LED, except for two light bulbs in the garage which are halogen.

[Plutonic Panda]

Electronic Billboards Causing Controversy In Edmond - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

[Plutonic Panda]

Pulling the plug? Edmond voters to decide fate of ordinance allowing electronic signs | The Journal Record

[jerrywall]

Regardless of folks position, I definitely encourage everyone who can to vote next week and have their voice heard. It's the best way to put this issue to rest if a large percentage of the voters participate.

This is also our municipal election for City Council and Mayor.

[Hollywood]

I also encourage everyone, despite their position to consider if they would like the hands of the council tied in the future. I honestly am indifferent on the signage issue, I simply do not like how the previous Mayors are trying to get it passed banning the council from addressing the issue again in the future. Options should always be able to be considered at the moment they are raised. A vote to repeal this ordnance in the future should not be required for the city council to visit and item as requested by the people.

[Plutonic Panda]

Hopefully people will read this understand these signs are good for the community as they give more options on how to advertise their business they chose to locate in Edmond.

"Electronic Message Sign Proposition Information Guide

On April 7, 2015, Edmond voters will have the opportunity to decide the future use of Electronic Message Signs in the Edmond City Limits by voting on Proposition 1. This is a brief guide to help you understand the ballot.

Current Ordinance, Chapter 15.31 (Ord. 3415, § 1, December 19, 2013):

15.31.010 - Definitions.
For the purpose of this section, the following terms shall have the meanings indicated:
(1) Electronic Message Sign: Any electronic communication device used on a ground sign, or portion thereof, utilizing lights, diodes, or similar illumination to create letters or numerals for products or services sold on the subject property.

15.31.020 - Ground Signs.
(1) Electronic Message Signs are allowed in any Zoning District, subject to full compliance with the standards listed in Title 15 Sign Regulations (including size limitations and spacing), applicable to the Zoning District where the sign is located and the Electronic Message Center standards stated in this Chapter.

(2) Electronic Message Signs shall only be allowed on a fully compliant or conforming ground sign. Pre-existing, non-conforming signs shall not be allowed to be modified or changed to allow an Electronic Message Sign until brought into full compliance with all standards listed in Title 15 and the standards stated in this Chapter.

(3) Electronic Message Signs shall only be allowed on ground signs; Electronic Message Signs are not permitted as wall signs or located on any structure not meeting the definition of a ground sign listed in Title 15.

15.31.030 - Electronic Message Signs are allowed as follows:
(1) Electronic Message Signs shall not be permitted to exceed a sign an area larger than 75 percent of the allowed sign size or sign side allowed by the particular Zoning District where the sign is located and as listed in Title 15.

(2) Only one Electronic Message Sign shall be located on arterials or higher classified streets according to the Master Transportation Plan.

(3) Electronic Message Signs shall have a duration of the text or numeral presentation of no less than a 30-second duration per static message for the products or services sold on the subject property. Electronic Message Signs shall not include moving, scrolling, rolling, animated, revolving, flashing, or blinking messages. A certification statement by the sign manufacturer or a registered electrical engineer shall be submitted with each Electronic Message Sign, documenting the 30-second duration compliance as to the sign operation.

(4) Electronic Message Signs shall not exceed a brightness level of 0.3 foot candles above ambient light, as measured by the guidelines below:

a. At least 30 minutes past sunset, use a foot candle meter to record the ambient light reading for the area. This is done while the digital sign is off or displaying all black copy.
b. Take a reading using foot candle meter at five feet above grade and 100 feet from the sign.
c. The meter shall be aimed directly at the digital sign.
d. Turn the sign on and illuminated entirely in white or red.
e. Take a reading using a meter at five feet above grade and 100 feet from the sign.
f. The meter shall be aimed directly at the digital sign.
g. Take the reading from five feet above and subtract the reading from two feet above. If the result is 0.3 foot candles or lower, then the sign is in compliance. If the result is greater than 0.3 foot candles, the sign is out of compliance and must be adjusted to meet standards or turned off until compliance can be met.
h. All measurements shall be taken in foot candles.

Proposition 1:
SHALL THE FOLLOWING ORDINANCE BE APPROVED?

BE IT ENACTED BY THE PEOPLE OF THE CITY OF EDMOND, OKLAHOMA, THAT AN ORDINANCE AMENDING TITLE 15 OF THE EDMOND MUNICIPAL CODE TO ADD A NEW CHAPTER 15.31 (A), (B), AND (C) PROHIBITING ELECTRONIC MESSAGE SIGNS AND PROVIDING FOR REPEALER AND SEVERABILITY BE APPROVED AS FOLLOWS:

Chapter 15.31 (A), (B), and (C) Electronic Message Signs
(A) Electronic message signs are prohibited in the City of Edmond, Oklahoma and cannot be considered as a variance, except for time and temperature signs or gasoline pricing signs that otherwise comply with City of Edmond sign codes.

(B) Electronic message signs are defined as any electronic communication device used on a ground sign, or portion thereof, utilizing lights, diodes, numerals for products or services sold on the subject property.

(C) Any ordinance conflicting with this ordinance is hereby repealed.

What a YES Vote Means:
By voting YES on Proposition 1, you are choosing to enact a new ordinance and the current ordinance goes away permanently. This means electronic signs will not be allowed minus the exceptions for time/temperature and gasoline prices. No exceptions or variances will be allowed at any time in the future.

What a NO Vote Means:
By voting NO on Proposition 1, you are choosing to keep the current ordinance with no changes. This means electronic signs will be allowed."

Edmond, OK - Official Website

So go out and vote regardless of whether you support it or not. I will be able to since I'll be here for it.

[Plutonic Panda]

Edmond residents to vote on electronic signs | News OK

[jerrywall]

Not for nothing, for the life of me I can't figure out Randel Shadid's interest in this. He's the variance king, and has made plenty representing developers wanting variances and signs. Heck, back in the 90s he fought to get a variance for a 200 ft crab sign/tower for a sea food restaurant. It's interesting he's pushing a bill that wouldn't allow variance. Wonder if that's just a setup for a future legal battle? He also fought to get Oncue a variance on their signage at 33rd and Kelly.

[Plutonic Panda]

Variances make absolutely no sense at all. Why have rules if you're going to grant variances all the time. Pretty much every single development I see in Edmond gets a variance of some kind or another.

[Plutonic Panda]

smh

One side believes the city has grown up, and this is a natural progression and step forward to keep up with the city's rapid growth. The other says it will never be the same, and Edmond will lose it's aesthetic appeal.

"It's the most restrictive electronic message sign ordinance in the Oklahoma City area," said Ken Moore, Edmond Chamber of Commerce President and CEO, referring to a city ordinance passed by the Edmond City Council last year.

"We just want to keep it home-y, and less Las Vegas-y," said Randel Shadid, former Edmond mayor, business owner and attorney.

Shadid helped garner over 1,100 signatures on a petition to put Proposition 1 on Tuesday's ballot. Proposition 1 would ban electronic signs in Edmond.

However, opponents of Proposition 1 say Edmond will never look like Las Vegas.

"I think that's kind of a bogus argument. That's more of a scare tactic than it is reality," said Moore, who pointed to a recent Edmond Chamber of Commerce survey where 77 percent of respondents said they support electronic message signs.

- http://www.koco.com/news/Edmond-vote...signs/32178338

Less Las Vegas'y. This is almost comical.

"It's the most restrictive electronic message sign ordinance in the Oklahoma City area,"

Not just OKC, if you do some research, Edmond's restrictions are among some of the strictest in the country, which I think is a good thing for a city like Edmond.

Good thing is, 77% people support, bad thing is, that doesn't mean crap if people don't vote and let these people succeed in using low voter turnout as a way as enforcing the views of the few on the masses who either don't care or support it. Every single business owner and person I've talked to with the sole exceptions of some people on this forum(views on the internet usually differ from the what the majority in 'real life' think) and two people at a city council meeting I spoke to.

[Hollywood]

Something to ponder. Business is what funds city service, not residential areas. If we keep losing business, the funding so the there to adequately provide services to the increasing residential areas and their inhabitants. If it helps business and its a compromise, it'll work better for all in the long run.

[jerrywall]

I'd be curious what business we keep losing?

[Plutonic Panda]

I'd be curious what business we keep losing?

Jerry, I doubt one business has been lost because of it. You are not understanding the point.

[Plutonic Panda]

I mean it's kind of like these lights



They light up at night and are awesome. Now is a business or someone who looking to move to Edmond going to say "hmmm, not sure if I want to move here because they don't have those LED road sign names?" No. But it is still awesome to have. A bunch of places in Dallas have them as well as the suburbs there. Addison has nearly every street light with them.

[jerrywall]

Jerry, I doubt one business has been lost because of it. You are not understanding the point.

I didn't want to get into a whole debate about signs again. But there was a statement that business keeps getting lost that I was curious about. It was a fair question. If anything, Edmond keeps getting cool new businesses that are rare or unique in the OKC metro.