University of Oklahoma SAE Fraternity Closed After Racist Video

[jccouger]

Eh, its kind of ironic becauses its somewhat like the n word. Invented as a term of disrespect, now non Greek students use it jokingly but Greeks still use it as an insult. I was on both sides and I know Greeks use it as a put down.

[jccouger]

Another preferred insult from Greeks to non Greeks is "a random". Greeks and non Greeks are almost entirely segregated, other than classes or clubs. Socially they almost never mix or hang out.

[jccouger]

Also, there are plenty of insults non Greeks throw at Greeks. I know its a 2 way street.

[Midtowner]

I'm not sure what the point is that you're driving at here.

[jccouger]

Mainly that the Greek system drives segragation culturally & racially.

[mkjeeves]

2) It is also fun to be a self-righteous prick, to pretend to be a better person than you actually are. It's fun to look down on other people in judgment.

I just think this needed posted again. Something about some of the last few posts made me think of it, for some unidentifiable reason.

For some unidentifiable reason, "random" and the origins of "GDI" in the Greek lexicon remind me of this. Along with singing racist songs on a bus.

[Midtowner]

Mainly that the Greek system drives segragation culturally & racially.

I'm a founding member of my chapter at UCO. My chapter is very diverse from both a racial and socioeconomic standpoint. This is becoming less and less true. Except for in the South, fraternities tend to be very diverse.

[PhiAlpha]

It meant one thing back in the 60s and 70s. The meaning has really shifted to being referential to folks who are butthurt that the Greek system continues to be "allowed" to exist.

I'm a founding member of my chapter at UCO. My chapter is very diverse from both a racial and socioeconomic standpoint. This is becoming less and less true. Except for in the South, fraternities tend to be very diverse.

Can and does happen in the south as well: How we made SAE the most diverse frat in our Texas school?s history - The Washington Post

[Just the facts]

Let me ask a simple question that should clear things up.

Did anyone know this chant was passed onto local chapters during a cruise 4 years ago BEFORE the Boren press conference?

Yes, again I said that was part of what I couldn't disclose over the last few weeks and when I get more than two minutes in front of a computer this weekend, I can give more detail on it.

Doh!

As soon as SAE's national office became aware of this, they suspended the chapter's charter.
...
It's hard to root out 150+ years of institutionalized racism, but progress is quickly being made.

I believe SAE's action (the national org) in pulling the charter was appropriate. I believe OU's action in shutting down the frat was appropriate. Both of these actions targeted the source of the problem.

Agree. It targeted the problem directly.

A song on a bus seems stupid, and racist, but pretty low on the scale and effect.

I'm not sure the culture at SAE is at issue any more.

With all due respect, you have only seen this situation as it has been portrayed by the media and you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

The SAE incident pretty much requires a culture of racism. My concern is whether we will make real progress on this issue, but if people keep pretending this was just an isolated mistake and not part of a larger cultural problem than nothing has been learned.

I don't know how much time you've spent with people in this particular age group, but no, you don't have enough facts to really know what you're talking about here.
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You're making a lot of assumptions here because you are not culturally competent with this particular demographic.

However, I have the benefit of being able to base my opinion on knowing people that were involved at multiple grade levels in the fraternity as well as generations of some of their families and having inside knowledge of the situation. You have two 10 second video clips and two weeks of media coverage. If that's all you have to go on, I'm pretty comfortable with where I stand in my opinion on this.

I started off defending the fact that there isn't a tradition or culture of racism in the house or the national fraternity with examples that I cited above because a tradition or culture of racism implies something that has been around for awhile...which would include the time that I was active there. I then got sucked into the pissing match that this thread has become.
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While I would love to throw all the freshmen who participated or even the rest of the current membership under the bus (see what I did there?) for this to salvage the chapter at OU, I can't because I know several of them or at least their families and know they were brought up to know that what they did was wrong and that they are not, nor are their families, racist.

First off, I very highly doubt the university knows more about this situation or will ever know as much about it as the people I've discussed it with. They always could but after seeing how their judicial committee and their investigations work for 5 years, I certainly have my doubts about their abilities.

The national fraternity even went as far as sending Boren a letter that condemned the student's actions, reaffirmed their suspension of the chapter, and confirmed that they were investigating as well, but also supported the fact that OU SAE has been one of it's strongest chapters throughout the fraternity's history and that it shouldn't be forever band from the campus because of one bus load of kids or 3-4 years of poor management/judgment or whatever you want to call it.

[Jim Kyle]

the origins of "GDI" in the Greek lexicon remind me of this.

Well, back in the 1948-52 years when I was a "Gamma Delta Iota" at OU, the name was thought to be invented by a few independents, and we bore it proudly. It may subsequently have been hijacked by some of the more elitist Greeks, but it certainly didn't begin that way...

The Oklahoma Daily featured a cartoon, too, in which members of "I Felta Thi" often appeared...

[mkjeeves]

Well, back in the 1948-52 years when I was a "Gamma Delta Iota" at OU, the name was thought to be invented by a few independents, and we bore it proudly. It may subsequently have been hijacked by some of the more elitist Greeks, but it certainly didn't begin that way...

The Oklahoma Daily featured a cartoon, too, in which members of "I Felta Thi" often appeared...

IFT and SOT were high school frats back in my day. There's no doubt in my mind those who managed to make it to the next level pledged to another hard partying org.

[PhiAlpha]

Doh!

Hows the view from up there?

now are you trying to say that I lied about what I knew before Boren said it because I said I couldn't disclose certain information until it was made public? It also appears that you are trying to say I lied about everything posted in my comments that you quoted.

[David]

Greeks are the ones who invented the acronym to put down non Greek students.

Which is nearly 100% irrelevant IMO since it's original use in this thread was by a non-greek to describe himself. From my perspective, it's not something the greek folks posting have been throwing around.

I can't say I remember hearing it during my time up at OSU, probably says something about the crowd one runs with.

[jccouger]

Which is nearly 100% irrelevant IMO since it's original use in this thread was by a non-greek to describe himself. From my perspective, it's not something the greek folks posting have been throwing around.

I can't say I remember hearing it during my time up at OSU, probably says something about the crowd one runs with.

Its because Greeks are the main ones to use it. It is relevant. I thinkn swake used it in a ironic way, not because that's how he "identified" himself.

I didn't rush as a freshman and had never even heard the term gdi. I rushed my sophmore year and then I heard it non stop. It is no doubt WAY more of a derogitive term then it is actual "gdis" use.

[Midtowner]

ITT: People with axes to grind get to grind their axes.

[PhiAlpha]

Its because Greeks are the main ones to use it. It is relevant. I thinkn swake used it in a ironic way, not because that's how he "identified" himself.

I didn't rush as a freshman and had never even heard the term gdi. I rushed my sophmore year and then I heard it non stop. It is no doubt WAY more of a derogitive term then it is actual "gdis" use.

Ive heard it used both in a derogotive way from people on both sides and many of my friends that were not in the Greek system used it to describe themselves when asked if they were in a fraternity. It's use and intent are not black and white.

[David]

Its because Greeks are the main ones to use it. It is relevant. I thinkn swake used it in a ironic way, not because that's how he "identified" himself.

I didn't rush as a freshman and had never even heard the term gdi. I rushed my sophmore year and then I heard it non stop. It is no doubt WAY more of a derogitive term then it is actual "gdis" use.

Greeks are the main ones to use it, except here where it was never mentioned until a non-greek did. Pardon my doubt when this thread is my sole experience with the term.

[Swake]

It meant one thing back in the 60s and 70s. The meaning has really shifted to being referential to folks who are butthurt that the Greek system continues to be "allowed" to exist.

No, I'm a bit older than you, no, it was not meant that way at all. Most of my friends were in frats, I spent many, many weekends at Frat parties. I probably spent every single weekend in college at a frat or with frat buddies. I just wasn't a member. I didn't go to KU until I was a sophomore and didn't want to get hazed by my buddies. It's that simple, no angst, no anger. My dad was in a frat, my grandfather, my uncle, all in frats. My wife was in a sorority and my daughter is now. I was no granola chewing angry GDI. I know exactly what they are all about. Kansas is far enough north that it was no big deal to be or to not be in a house, unlike some schools around here. Frats are drinking clubs with a veneer of community organizations. When one goes bad, get rid of it, who cares.

I think you have too much of your self worth tied up into your college social life. Time to let go.

[Pete]

Time to stop all the personal barbs and attacks.

If you can't discuss this or other topics without focusing on posters instead of the topic itself, expect a vacation from the site.

[Spartan]

Bite me. I was a GDI, but I had many friends in many different houses. My wife is active in her alumni group for her sorority and my daughter is currently in a sorority. SAE was known as the racist frat at KU when I was in college 25 years ago and my wife says the same thing about them at OSU back then. It's the old south frat. Always has been.

Everywhere across the country, their formal is called "Plantation Ball." I never understood how it was allowed...but we just assumed they weren't serious about all that. Guess that was a wrong assumption.

By the way, it's worth noting that racial and ethnic diversity is one thing for a fraternity to accept...sexual orientation is another issue. It's pretty true that you can basically classify every house based on its level of acceptance for diversity, broadly defined. The "classification" on each campus would look roughly the same as if you had used any other factor, like grades, campus involvement, etc.

[Just the facts]

Hows the view from up there?

now are you trying to say that I lied about what I knew before Boren said it because I said I couldn't disclose certain information until it was made public? It also appears that you are trying to say I lied about everything posted in my comments that you quoted.

I am suggesting that you tried to paint picture you knew wasn't true, both actively and passively.

Let's take the first quoted responses from Jerrywall, traxx, Midtowner, and Pete - who I assume didn't posses the knowledge you did but for some reason you didn't see it fit to correct them.

Midtowner - As soon as SAE's national office became aware of this, they suspended the chapter's charter.
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It's hard to root out 150+ years of institutionalized racism, but progress is quickly being made.

Not only was the national office aware of it the whole time, they came up with, sanctioned, and disseminated the chant 4 years ago. As for progress being made - this was actually regression if you are correct that SAE wasn't like this 10 years ago.

jerrywall - I believe SAE's action (the national org) in pulling the charter was appropriate. I believe OU's action in shutting down the frat was appropriate. Both of these actions targeted the source of the problem.

They didn't target the source of the problem because the source was the SAE national leadership itself - who by all accounts, threw the OU chapter and it's members under the bus.

traxx - Agree. It targeted the problem directly.

Nope. Once again the national leadership tried to cover-up their involvement by pinning the whole thing on some freshman.

I'm not sure the culture at SAE is at issue any more.

The culture at SAE is the only issue.

At any time you could have corrected these comments based on the knowledge that you alone possessed, and you didn't have to reveal anything of detail; you could have simply said hey guys, this is more than just a youtube video so wait for the investigation to conclude before making your mind up because there is some stuff that isn't in the public realm yet.

[Midtowner]

JTF, you've never been to a national fraternity convention, so let me just fill you in a bit. Lots goes on at those things which is not sanctioned by HQ. Remove from your mind the idea that if something happens at a national convention that HQ must have sanctioned it or had at least something to do with it. Definitely not the case. Much of these conventions is opportunity for socializing, going to bars, drinking in your hotel rooms, with brothers from all over the U.S. and Canada. And yes... sometimes songs or chants not appearing in the official pledge manual tend to be disseminated.

[Swake]

Lots goes on at those things which is not sanctioned by HQ..... Much of these .... ....... is opportunity for socializing, going to bars, drinking.... ......., with brothers...... ....... And yes... sometimes songs or chants not appearing in the official pledge manual tend to be disseminated.

So basically like every other day at the frat, just not in the actual house.

Bros are gonna Bro

[Mel]

Without Uni's and the partiers we might not have one of the funniest subjects on texts from last night. The Walk Of Shame.

[jerrywall]

So .i. like...frat...s...Bro

That's fun!