University of Oklahoma SAE Fraternity Closed After Racist Video

[dankrutka]

With all due respect, you have only seen this situation as it has been portrayed by the media and you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The same can probably be said for nearly everyone else that has posted throughout the 18 pages of this thread.

Please enlighten us at to how a song like this could be taught within a culture where racism is not an issue. How does a fraternity go over a decade without a black member without some kind of racism? SAE members came out and apologized on campus for not stopping what was happening in the house. There's been admission that the song was taught by members in the house. I am not saying SAE is unique among fraternities, but I'd love to hear your perspective because I'm basing my judgment on a large number of perspectives.

[dankrutka]

Really? I'd love to see that scale, because I'd have to wonder where actually lynching someone for being black would fall. Or actually voting to bar someone from joining for being black. Or lighting a cross on fire in someone's yard and dressing in a white robe. Because those seem extreme on scale and effects. A song on a bus seems stupid, and racist, but pretty low on the scale and effect.

My standards are based on the 21st century, not a time when slavery and segregation were legal. Yes, I consider singing lynching songs in semi-public spaces pretty extreme. It seems our society agrees with me as noted by the fact that a short clip ignited a national outrage where the actions were universally condemned.

So, yeah, Jim Crow laws that have been illegal for 50 years and actual lynchings are well beyond the scope of what we should be discussing at this point, right?

[soonermike81]

18-19 year old kids who consume more alcohol than they probably should don't always make the most positive life choices. A racist act does not quite make someone a racist.

I actually agree with the above 100%. After this incident, I spoke with my friends and I argued that most of these kids are probably not truly racist deep down. At 18-19 years old, most of them probably don't have enough life experiences to develop true hatred toward any specific group of people. They're more than likely a bunch of followers who needed to be accepted, so they sang what was taught to them. A lot of them probably began using the n-word much earlier in life, probably learned it from their parents or their peers in their predominantly white high schools. But have they truly had enough interaction with blacks in order to develop these negative thoughts? I doubt it. These are just my assumptions and my gut feeling.

But as far as the whole apology/PR stunt, I'm willing to bet that he was forced to make that apology by his parents. I, personally, don't feel it was sincere. To me, it's all about salvaging what's left of the family name at this point. But I could be wrong, I've been wrong before. Like I said, it took a lot of courage to do this. Me at 18 years old? I probably would've hid out for as long as possible until this situation was forgotten by most. I didn't actually listen to/watch the apology, but I spoke with a couple members of the black community today who did hear it, and they don't feel he was genuine. But that was just a couple of people.

Also, I do believe in forgiveness and don't think we should persecute this kid for the rest of his life. I've made a large number of mistakes in my life, which as an adult, wish I could take back. So, no, I'm not looking at burning this kid at the stake.

[jerrywall]

My standards are based on the 21st century, not a time when slavery and segregation were legal. Yes, I consider singing lynching songs in semi-public spaces pretty extreme. It seems our society agrees with me as noted by the fact that a short clip ignited a national outrage where the actions were universally condemned.

So, yeah, Jim Crow laws that have been illegal for 50 years and actual lynchings are well beyond the scope of what we should be discussing at this point, right?

I'm still gonna have to disagree. Yes, what they did was stupid. And yes, SAE teaching this song chant was bad and indefensible and the treatment that the SAE chapter received was 100% appropriate. But these young men singing this chant on a private bus is in no way in the realm of the extreme end of racism in scale or effect, and it's nuts to claim otherwise. There have been cross burning incidents in yards THIS YEAR. That's pretty extreme. Directed incidents of racism towards minorities. At the minimum, you'd have to consider hurt and damage in any logical scale. There's a reason they're not being charged with a hate crime or anything of that effect (and it would be absurd to suggest it).

Useless hyperbole helps nothing of the discussion and crosses the line into witch hunting.

[okatty]

From a very good source - the chant/song came from Univ. of Texas - an SAE at OU from Tx had brother at UT and he got song from him. Not taught or used generally at SAE OU, but was that night on the bus and originated from the Tx. Many SAE OU kids had never heard the song until they saw the video for first time. Not an excuse - but seems to be how it made its way to OU SAE on that particular night. I will say there are some very fired up SAE parents and OU alums whose kids were nowhere near that bus that night, who had never heard that song and who within 24 hours were on the street with no assistance from OU in regard to housing etc.

[PhiAlpha]

Please enlighten us at to how a song like this could be taught within a culture where racism is not an issue. How does a fraternity go over a decade without a black member without some kind of racism? SAE members came out and apologized on campus for not stopping what was happening in the house. There's been admission that the song was taught by members in the house. I am not saying SAE is unique among fraternities, but I'd love to hear your perspective because I'm basing my judgment on a large number of perspectives.

Drop the condescending tone, your position on the other side of this issue does not make you better than me. As I've said before, I'm limited in what I can say for now about the situation.

Your large number of perspectives with actual knowledge of the situation are limited to the apologies of two students and a two sentence statement from the board of trustees. No one else who actually knows anything about the current situation at the SAE house has spoken to the media.

How does the fraternity go for a decade without signing a black member?
1) At least when I was in school, African American students made up a very small percentage of those who rushed. We rushed several while I was there and most of them either chose other houses (as many other rushees of every ethnic background do) or chose one of the African American ehnic fraternities (alpha phi alpha, phi beta sigma, etc). Ironically while I was in the house, we hosted several diversity type events where we would invite the ethnic fraternities and sororities over to the house, learn about eachothers organizations and cultures, then party with them afterwards. We also often partnered with those ethnic fraternities/sororities when doing homecoming and other campus events. We had very good relationships with those organizations and mutually benefited from our interactions.

2) Notice I said most signed elsewhere...as is so often the case, the media completely overlooked several facts in this story to pursue the agenda and witch hunt that it turned into. We did sign an African American student in 2010 who graduated in December of 2014...I know because the kid went to my highschool and I was still in the house when he signed. Unfortunately Will James and John Davis, the two African American guys that were interviewed on CNN, also didn't know that there was another African American member. The student lived in the house and participated in fraternity events like everyone else. So while signing one black guy in the last decade doesn't make us worthy of a tickertape parade, it disputes the narrative that's been perpetuated by the media that there is some major culture of racism there.

On another note, several members of the same football team that protested SAE before spring break (including several current and previous captains), were friends with several current members of SAE (some of whom were walk-ons on the football team at one point) and partied with them at the house as recent as the week before the video came out. So again, if all these guys were so racist, why did they sign a black person and invite FRIENDS from the football team over to hang out on regular occasions? It again, reinforces some of the things Midtowner has said.

[PhiAlpha]

From a very good source - the chant/song came from Univ. of Texas - an SAE at OU from Tx had brother at UT and he got song from him. Not taught or used generally at SAE OU, but was that night on the bus and originated from the Tx. Many SAE OU kids had never heard the song until they saw the video for first time. Not an excuse - but seems to be how it made its way to OU SAE on that particular night. I will say there are some very fired up SAE parents and OU alums whose kids were nowhere near that bus that night, who had never heard that song and who within 24 hours were on the street with no assistance from OU in regard to housing etc.

That is not completely accurate but is close.

[Bullbear]

Ive avoided this thread for the most part. mainly because when I do read some of the posts I wonder how anyone can defend any portion of this. I am sorry but to sing such a song and say that doesn't make you racist is just too much.. if it doesn't make you racist is certainly makes you a coward who won't stand up for what it right in a situation. which it turn makes you part of the problem. I for one once be silent when it comes to blatant racist behavior by others.

[PhiAlpha]

Ive avoided this thread for the most part. mainly because when I do read some of the posts I wonder how anyone can defend any portion of this. I am sorry but to sing such a song and say that doesn't make you racist is just too much.. if it doesn't make you racist is certainly makes you a coward who won't stand up for what it right in a situation. which it turn makes you part of the problem. I for one once be silent when it comes to blatant racist behavior by others.

On another note, you also only see 10 seconds of video...you don't see other people on the bus telling those singing to stop. Of all the people on that bus that have been interviewed by the University, one consistency in their testimony is that several people who were mentioned by name in each case, did stand up and tell them to stop singing it.

I've never defended what they said and have even said that I thought the fraternity needed to hit the restart button over the last few years...but to say that saying or singing something ignorant definitely makes you racist, is in itself ignorant.

[Bullbear]

I've never defended what they said and have even said that I thought the fraternity needed to hit the restart button over the last few years...but to say that saying or singing something ignorant definitely makes you racist, is in itself ignorant.

For anyone to sing those words and just dismiss it as ignorant and not racist is ignorant. I don't buy boys will be boys BS those words are inflamatory and offensive and there is NO WAY i believe someone sings them willfully and with such glee and can say " it doesn't mean they are racist " COME ON.. .. sorry all stocked up on crazy here .. try to sell that somewhere else.


I get it.. you dont like to see Greek life getting a black eye.. but seriously.

[PhiAlpha]

For anyone to sing those words and just dismiss it as ignorant and not racist is ignorant. I don't buy boys will be boys BS those words are inflamatory and offensive and there is NO WAY i believe someone sings them willfully and with such glee and can say " it doesn't mean they are racist " COME ON.. .. sorry all stocked up on crazy here .. try to sell that somewhere else.


I get it.. you dont like to see Greek life getting a black eye.. but seriously.

Then you have your opinion and I have mine.

However, I have the benefit of being able to base my opinion on knowing people that were involved at multiple grade levels in the fraternity as well as generations of some of their families and having inside knowledge of the situation. You have two 10 second video clips and two weeks of media coverage. If that's all you have to go on, I'm pretty comfortable with where I stand in my opinion on this.

[Just the facts]

After reading this I have concluded that some of you need to take a step back and re-examine your lives because you seem to have placed the center of the racist/not racist scale directly where you are standing and the reality is you are standing over on the racist side.

As a father, if my son ever said anything like this I would be the one addressing the media because clearly I failed big time in raising a well mannered and respectable Christian child. And you can be sure that I would impress upon him how serious the situation is because that is NOT how he was raised.

[PhiAlpha]

After reading this I have concluded that some of you need to take a step back and re-examine your lives because you seem to have placed the center of the racist/not racist scale directly where you are standing and the reality is you are standing over on the racist side.

I sure hope you didn't read my comments and direct this at me...if so that is crap.

[Bullbear]

i should have continued to just stay way from this thread. because sure enough its just more of the same.
I say if it walks like a duck and talks (or sings) like a duck.. well its probably a duck ( even if you know generations of ducks before it that swear it isn't a duck and will write letters of how they couldn't be a duck. )

[Just the facts]

I know this - my kids have never heard any language, or learned any behavior, like that in my house. How many apologists on this subject can say that about their home?

[PhiAlpha]

i should have continued to just stay way from this thread. because sure enough its just more of the same.
I say if it walks like a duck and talks (or sings) like a duck.. well its probably a duck ( even if you know generations of ducks before it that swear it isn't a duck and will write letters of how they couldn't be a duck. )

Anonymity on internet forums is great isn't it? Gives you great opportunities to be a dick without repercussions.

Once again, I comment on this situation...with more knowledge of it than anyone here...and am met with hostility. Grow up and learn to have a conversation without being a ass.

[PhiAlpha]

I know this - my kids have never heard any language, or learned any behavior, like that in my house. How many apologists on this subject can say that about their home?

...I can say that about my home...And my fraternity house, which was my home for 4 years, while I was in it.

Also, congrats on not letting your kids listen to rap music...wise choice, unless things change with that genre, I may be doing the same in a few years.

[Bullbear]

Ummm I believe you said my "Opinion" on the matter made me ignorant. so my response was to you.
I would say the same thing to anyones face. I find it indefenseable to use such language and to sing it with such glee whether it by a 10sec clip or not is racist and is racist behavior no matter what else you know about that person. End of story.. my opinion.. I don't defend those who are racist in behavior.
your knowledge of the situation doesn't change what was said.

[PhiAlpha]

As a father, if my son ever said anything like this I would be the one addressing the media because clearly I failed big time in raising a well mannered and respectable Christian child. And you can be sure that I would impress upon him how serious the situation is because that is NOT how he was raised.

Outside of addressing the media, that is largely how the responsible parties' parents have handled this (at least those that I know)

[jerrywall]

After reading this I have concluded that some of you need to take a step back and re-examine your lives because you seem to have placed the center of the racist/not racist scale directly where you are standing and the reality is you are standing over on the racist side.

As a father, if my son ever said anything like this I would be the one addressing the media because clearly I failed big time in raising a well mannered and respectable Christian child. And you can be sure that I would impress upon him how serious the situation is because that is NOT how he was raised.

Do you bring your own cross with you to save yourself time?

[PhiAlpha]

Ummm I believe you said my "Opinion" on the matter made me ignorant. so my response was to you.
I would say the same thing to anyones face. I find it indefenseable to use such language and to sing it with such glee whether it by a 10sec clip or not is racist and is racist behavior no matter what else you know about that person. End of story.. my opinion.. I don't defend those who are racist in behavior.
your knowledge of the situation doesn't change what was said.

No, I said your opinion was ignorant. Never said that you were, though maybe I should have.

Then to each his own. No point in continuing this...we will not see eye to eye on it.

[Just the facts]

...I can say that about my home...And my fraternity house, which was my home for 4 years, while I was in it.

Also, congrats on not letting your kids listen to rap music...wise choice, unless things change with that genre, I may be doing the same in a few years.

So then why are you defending it or making excuses. Man up and just say, "that didn't happen on my watch and if that is what is taking place now then consider all ties broken. I want no part of it."

Also, rap isn't music, and it is not listened to in my house. Well, unless you consider the song Convoy rap. My kids have heard that song

[Just the facts]

Do you bring your own cross with you to save yourself time?

What do you mean?

[PhiAlpha]

So then why are you defending it or making excuses. Man up and just say, "that didn't happen on my watch and if that is what is taking place now then consider all ties broken. I want no part of it."

Also, rap isn't music, and it is not listened to in my house. Well, unless you consider the song Convoy rap. My kids have heard that song

I have "Manned up" several times and said what they did was wrong and that the place was broken and has needed a change for several years now. I've also never defended "it" and made excuses for "it". I've condemned the song and the people that sung it since I first saw the video. I've only said that 50 people should not be defined has racists for the rest of their lives because of a ten second video clip of them singing a racist song while drunk on a bus during the second semester of their freshmen year. If you haven't seen that in my posts, you've either ignored portions of them or have skipped past them altogether.

I started off defending the fact that there isn't a tradition or culture of racism in the house or the national fraternity with examples that I cited above because a tradition or culture of racism implies something that has been around for awhile...which would include the time that I was active there. I then got sucked into the pissing match that this thread has become.

To answer your question, loyalty. While I can condemn what they did all day, I can't just "consider all ties broken" with an organization that I care about. If you weren't in a fraternity, it's probably something that's difficult for you to understand, but the fraternity extends far beyond the 4+ years you spend it school. I'm the fourth generation of my family back to my great grandfather that have been a part of SAE. Many of my friends, my dads friends, and my business colleagues are SAEs. Many of those people that I've talked with over the last few weeks, whether they were there in the 70s, 80s, 90s, or 2000s, have been almost physically sickened by this because it is not something that was sung while we were there, is not part of the fraternities values, and because we all care and are sad to see what was a great chapter go down the tubes like this. If I have sons, I would like for them to have an opportunity to be a part of the fraternity, especially if they choose to attend OU, which gives me and others who actually have kids now, a vested interest in rebuilding and helping to salvage the reputation of SAE at OU... which is obviously going to take a lot of work and time. I wouldn't have wanted my kids to be a part of what the OU SAE house was becoming over the last few years for reasons unrelated to this, which is why I've advocated shutting it down or doing a major review of the membership for the last few years. One dumb class pledge class or even 2 to 3 subpar ones, would be a ridiculous reason to cut ties with a 100 year old chapter in a 150 year old organization...but it provides a opportunity to make changes to improve the organization. Unfortunately in this case... those changes came too late.

While I would love to throw all the freshmen who participated or even the rest of the current membership under the bus (see what I did there?) for this to salvage the chapter at OU, I can't because I know several of them or at least their families and know they were brought up to know that what they did was wrong and that they are not, nor are their families, racist. Again, believe what you want, that's your choice, but that is my opinion based on my intimate knowledge of this. I also think this could've been handled better all around and, like several articles written by people of all races have said, could've been used as a teaching moment instead of inciting a worldwide riot with people sending death threats to and/or attacking OU students in other greek houses or in general.

Agree on rap. And funny that you mention Convoy...my dad actually did a skit based on Convoy with his fraternity brothers during his pledgeship at SAE.

[Just the facts]

I've only said that 50 people should not be defined has racists for the rest of their lives because of a ten second video clip of them singing a racist song while drunk on a bus during the second semester of their freshmen year.

I think this is where the disconnect is. The 10 second video is of them getting caught. If you think this is an isolated 10 second lapse in judgment (that by some fluke of nature just happened to be caught on a cellphone at the very moment it happened) then the rest of us are going to see that as naivete on your part or a cover-up/denial of reality from a 4th generation 'loyal' member. Neither of those options cast a good light.

Also, I was not in a fraternity.

Now as for the people involved. I am not of the mind set of 'once a racist always a racist', or even that saying completely offensive things makes one a racist. Only they know where their hearts are. Sometimes one has to do something really stupid to self-realize just how far off the rails one has come, but make no mistake, they came off the rails long before that video was taken. At that point the question becomes, what did they (SAE) know, and when did they know it? Your take seems to be that they knew nothing, and didn't know it until they saw the video. No one is buying that.