Wheeler District

[Canoe]

I am thinking if it costs the same to buy in the Wheeler District that it does in Deep Deuce, that property is going to sell slowly. Part of the proposal was that it would be less expensive than the downtown options.

Isn't the Hill like $250-265 ft^2 for the new stuff.

It can and will be cheaper than deep deuce.

[Teo9969]

Again…so many variables…If the Humphries could raise $600M, they could build an instantly successful community overnight. If they are working with a variety of investors who demand the ability to put their own stamp on things, then it will be a little more arduous and time-consuming. It seems to me very simple: The Humphries need to focus on developing the amenities and safety of the district and act as a design review board for the majority of the residential/office.

In terms of PPSF of residential, they need to shoot for sales in the $150/sf - $220/sf. If they want to find a way to subsidize $125/sf, great, but the proximity to downtown alone makes the values of a brand new neighborhood significant, and one in which savvy investors and people who want an urban living environment will pay for.

The entire neighborhood will be finished by 2030 if the bones of the neighborhood are good. If they present a great plan and they get their ducks in a row, they'll have both home-owners and home-investors knocking down their door to give them their money. People need to keep in mind that as soon as the neighborhood becomes viable in and of itself, the prices are going to skyrocket, and there are a lot of investors who are aware of that and a lot of home-owners who would like to take advantage of that.

[dcsooner]

Why would the success or failure of a private developer who owns the land they intend to develop have anything at all to do with nearly any those other projects? The street car maybe since there's always the chance it could impact Wheeler in future phases, but none of the rest of that is relevant to this discussion in the slightest. We weren't jumping on justifiable skepticism, we were jumping on pointless nay-saying.

David,
You are actually making a VERY GOOD ARGUMENT FOR MY POSITION. OKC historically has not experienced SIGNIFICANT PRIVATE investment IN ANY ONE PROJECT OF THIS SCOPE.. Speculative building is non existent due to the volatile oil and gas industry and good but not hyper growth DOES NOT MAKE INVESTERS WANT TO SPEND BIG MONEY. STILL WAITING ON FIRST NATIONAL PRIVATE INVESTORS?. THE 20-30 YEAR PROJECTIONS TELL THE STORY, BUT KEEP HOPE ALIVE

[Pete]

During the charettes they stated that they hope/intend to build a high-quality school to serve Wheeler and surrounding neighborhoods. Seems doable, considering Kirk's involvement with Rex.

I understand that way of thinking but it would sure be nice if we could incorporate kids from the surrounding neighborhoods OR invest in existing schools that would serve this neighborhood.

[David]

David,
You are actually making a VERY GOOD ARGUMENT FOR MY POSITION. OKC historically has not experienced SIGNIFICANT PRIVATE investment IN ANY ONE PROJECT OF THIS SCOPE.. Speculative building is non existent due to the volatile oil and gas industry and good but not hyper growth DOES NOT MAKE INVESTERS WANT TO SPEND BIG MONEY. STILL WAITING ON FIRST NATIONAL PRIVATE INVESTORS?. THE 20-30 YEAR PROJECTIONS TELL THE STORY, BUT KEEP HOPE ALIVE

Having some problems with your shift key?

[dankrutka]

Edmond is about safety and schools. The biggest hurdle isnt price. It is safety and schools. If they can address these two areas they will not need to be competitive on price vs Edmond.

Did you tell them that people are more likely to be murdered by a stranger in a suburban environment than an urban one? (Source: Walkable City) Maybe that'll change their minds. Lol.

[dankrutka]

During the charettes they stated that they hope/intend to build a high-quality school to serve Wheeler and surrounding neighborhoods. Seems doable, considering Kirk's involvement with Rex.

Or move into the community and invest in the area elementary school. The biggest problem with urban public schools is people run from them instead of investing in them. Most schools have the ingredients for success, but suffer from economic and racial segregation that transfers social problems to schools in communities where many working poor families cannot make the same kind of investment due to financial and job restraints.

[dankrutka]

I understand that way of thinking but it would sure be nice if we could incorporate kids from the surrounding neighborhoods OR invest in existing schools that would serve this neighborhood.

Just saw you beat me to the punch.

It really is frustrating as an educator how primarily white families still run scared from diverse schools. It's a huge problem that comes up often.

[krisb]

The units have to be more affordable than downtown. If they are too pricey folks will just choose to live downtown or stay in the suburbs where they can have sidewalks, greenbelts, and a lot more square footage for the same money. Also, there ought to be some reward for the early investors who choose to stake their claim before the property values increase. You have to consider the current conditions of the surrounding area.

[Urbanized]

Pete and Dan, did you just miss the part where I said that the hoped-for school (as described in charettes) would also serve surrounding neighborhoods? The school might have new facilities but would be intentionally diverse. I'm not sure how I could have said it any more plainly.

[Just the facts]

You guys have to get away from the price per sq foot thinking. Suburbia is based on price per size. Urban is based on access per price. The objective in urban living is to go as small as you can and still be comfortable while the main selling point is the view and how close you are to work, entertainment, shopping, and dining.

[dankrutka]

I gotchya and I'm sure a new school could be beneficial to the area... But if a new group of primarily white developers (assumption) and white residents (assumption) enter the area and build a new school - it certainly sends the message that YOUR school wasn't good enough for our kids so we'll get a new one built and your kids can come too OUR school too. I guess I'd rather see new residents invest time, energy, and money in what the community has already built.

I'm making a few assumptions and I dont know the area really well so I could be off. My observations are more based on situations I've seen play out in many other areas. Feel free to correct my errors...

[SouthSide]

This development certainly has my interest. I like the location and it would shorten my commute. However, I'm not sure how I feel about a new school for this area. I would hate for OKCPS to develop a two tier system school system. I don't think it is diverse schools that families flee as much as impoverished schools and the resulting issues. Though diversity can present its own challenges. The last "white" family with young kids we had in my previous neighborhood gave up on OKCPS because teachers were spending so much time with kids for whom English was not their first language that their "Anglo" kids were not receiving the educational experience they needed.

[hoya]

You guys have to get away from the price per sq foot thinking. Suburbia is based on price per size. Urban is based on access per price. The objective in urban living is to go as small as you can and still be comfortable while the main selling point is the view and how close you are to work, entertainment, shopping, and dining.

Only to a certain extent. I would like to live in the Wheeler District if it turns out like I think it's going to turn out. But it has to meet my requirements. I have to have X number of bedrooms for no more than Y cost. If you are going to have families move in and not have it be a playground for wealthy retirees and young singles, you're going to have to supply housing those families can afford.

The Wheeler District currently has zero access to entertainment, shopping, and dining. It soon will, but exactly how much is still up in the air. It also has very inexpensive housing stock right next to it. This is a relatively poor area. You can't justify established downtown neighborhood prices when you're 3 blocks away from Will Rogers Courts.

[hoya]

I gotchya and I'm sure a new school could be beneficial to the area... But if a new group of primarily white developers (assumption) and white residents (assumption) enter the area and build a new school - it certainly sends the message that YOUR school wasn't good enough for our kids so we'll get a new one built and your kids can come too OUR school too. I guess I'd rather see new residents invest time, energy, and money in what the community has already built.

I'm making a few assumptions and I dont know the area really well so I could be off. My observations are more based on situations I've seen play out in many other areas. Feel free to correct my errors...

My guess is they'll try to cut some deal with Mount St Mary's. But even if they start up a new school, I don't see why that should bother you too much. If the kids from the surrounding neighborhood get to go to the new "rich" school, doesn't that accomplish the same goal of better education for everyone in the area? It's probably more politically feasible that way.

[dankrutka]

This instance doesn't bother me that much. It's the larger issue that does. I don't have a big problem with a new school, but it's at least worth considering what's there and what it might mean for the community.

[dankrutka]

This development certainly has my interest. I like the location and it would shorten my commute. However, I'm not sure how I feel about a new school for this area. I would hate for OKCPS to develop a two tier system school system. I don't think it is diverse schools that families flee as much as impoverished schools and the resulting issues. Though diversity can present its own challenges. The last "white" family with young kids we had in my previous neighborhood gave up on OKCPS because teachers were spending so much time with kids for whom English was not their first language that their "Anglo" kids were not receiving the educational experience they needed.

Sounds like the area could use some two way bilingual schools, which research has indicated have a lot of academic success aside from (both English language learners and native English speakers) students learning a language from their peers and teachers. Anyone know how many two way bilingual schools OKCPS has? This area would be a fantastic spot for such a school.

[Teo9969]

dan and I are on the same page!

A dual-immersion school would be a grand slam. Super impressive vision on their part.

Even better, it appears that Blair Humphreys is as well:

From Steve's chat today.

Blair/Todd: how do you plan to tackle the public schooling issues within the boundaries of Wheeler? Meaning, do you have long term thoughts for families that might want to live there but don't feel like there are good options for their kids (if they can't do private and don't want to home school)?

Blair- how does your dad's work with MAPS for Kids affect your thinking around public education?

Blair Humphreys; Yes, we have thought a lot about education. We would definitely like to see a public school option. South OKC has an existing crowding situation at some of their public schools. We believe there is potential for a new charter school to serve families living on the southside and families moving into Wheeler. We are very excited about the potential of a duel emersion charter school that would be able to serve children with English as a first language and Spanish as a first language. We are still in the very early stages, so there needs to be a conversation with city and community leaders and elected leadership and administrators of the school district. We are certainly interested in offering a site and we would be thrilled to have such a school in our community.

There seemed to be a lot of interest in Wheeler during the chat today.

[CaptDave]

Education and a potential school for the area was one of the universal desires at the charette. Nearly everyone was concerned about it and integrating the new with the existing neighborhoods surrounding the proposed development. I really think Blair and the Humphries group will do this right.

[dankrutka]

Well, there you go...

[Urbanized]

I said as much on the previous page but only got argument for my trouble.

[Teo9969]

I said as much on the previous page but only got argument for my trouble.

You're being punished by the board for your views on the convention center

[TU 'cane]

As much as the Humphreys will allow..? I don't understand that comment. First of all, they invited the entire community to the design charettes (hundreds attended, from all walks of life and parts of the community) and encouraged unprecedented public comment and suggestions during planning phases.

Second, the development is being master planned by one of the foremost New Urbanism-focused planning firms in the world. I'm not sure forcing OKC's planning and design values into the situation at this point would help; as a matter of fact I'm quite convinced that doing so would be detrimental.

I think the better use of public input would be to encourage City officials to cooperate as much as humanly possible in the creation of Oklahoma's most walkable and human-scaled new neighborhood to be built in generations.

There's not much to not understand.
If you read some of the previous comments before my post, there are a few people insisting that this won't be what it's planned up to be.
So, I responded by saying (and already knowing that Humphreys wanted public opinion and hosted several forums) that everyone who's interested, or those who are already losing faith (for whatever reason... again, read some of the comments and maybe you can answer why), to remain active in it as much as possible. As much as will be allowed by Humphreys... Take advantage.
It was not an indictment against Humphreys, rather, against the naysayers and doubters.

[Just the facts]

Only to a certain extent. I would like to live in the Wheeler District if it turns out like I think it's going to turn out. But it has to meet my requirements. I have to have X number of bedrooms for no more than Y cost. If you are going to have families move in and not have it be a playground for wealthy retirees and young singles

If you need 3 bedrooms fine, just expect those bedrooms to be 8' x 10', not 12' x 14' but cost the same price.

[Rover]

I think some confuse input with control. This isn't, and other private endeavors aren't exercises to take a vote and execute the results of the vote. It is INPUT, but decisions have to be made by the people who OWN the project. The WANT it to be the most successful it can be. They take the input seriously. But they have to weigh everything. I guarantee that after it starts according to plan, if it isn't trending successfully they will make whatever changes they have to make to make it so. So, yes there is a chance it won't complete as the early comps look. But it doesn't prove intent to deceive, just that they are a private business with investors and other stakeholders who expect, in the end, to reap the right level of profits for their risk. Though everyone on here seems to think otherwise, this is far from a slam dunk for them.