Development that will make Dallas and KC Jealous?

[bchris02]

Personally, I don't want anything thay would make Dallas jealous, because what would interest a majority of Dallas residents wouldn't interest me at all. However, maybe Steve was talking about a subset of the population since he said this to the OKC urban-minded population, as in, OKC could get an urban project that will make the Dallas and KC urbanist jealous.

I really think you would enjoy Dallas more than you think. They have some great urban districts scattered throughout the metro area. It's possible to live comfortably without a car in Dallas, something that currently cannot be done in OKC.

[adaniel]

Don't believe it. Isn't this about the 50th time I've seen this statement about a thread or an entire sub forum by someone... it never sticks.

Flipping the table is neither mature nor productive. I think there is a constant negativity which seems so pervasive in some folks' minds about OKC. "OKC will never" , "OKC could never", "Progress is dying", "No new stuff is happening", etc, etc. So much of an immature and a grass is always greener mindset, and quite a bit of an inferiority complex.

Nailed it.

After being on this board for 10 years now (crazy) I've learned a lot of people find it easier to blame their personal problems on their locale.

[jerrywall]

Like I've said before, my sister and brother in law have lived north of Ft Worth for years and have recently retired. And like they say, don't get out on a highway until after 9:00 am, and make sure you leave to come home before 3:00 pm or wait until after 7:00 pm. They have to plan their day around the traffic, and that would just suck.

I can't speak to the Fort Worth side, but I worked for a company on Quorum Drive off of Beltline in Addision (Just north of Dallas) until recently, and was down there multiple times a week. Leaving to come to OKC required me leaving work before 4 or staying until 6-7. It was a standstill. Beltline itself, from the tollway to 35E was about 45 minutes to go 5 miles. I could take the tollway to 635, and then shoot over, but even then it was often a parking lot. Especially stretches of 35E like right around UNT where it's narrow, and there's been perpetual construction. Anyone who doesn't think there isn't required planning to deal with Dallas traffic is fooling themselves. But it's part of the problem with large cities.

That being said, someone made a comparison between NYC highways and Dallas, and I'll take NYC any time. No trucks in the left lanes, wide, fast moving. Never had any problem there. Outside of Manhattan, driving in the NYC area was never an issue. Spent lots of time driving between NYC and Princeton, and it was great. In many ways, it felt like driving in Oklahoma/Texas.

[jerrywall]

*** bunch of generic anti okc whining***.

Then why bother participating here if you feel this way, because you don't contribute anything positive besides the three person circle you know what that you negative three spend all your time doing.

I see awesome stuff happening that people from other areas, relatives from Seattle and Portland, friends who just moved here from Phoenix, and folks who've lived here their whole lives are constantly impressed with. Bricktown continues to grow and be amazing. I look at developments like Chisholm Creek, some of the great local bars that are developing, a local beer scene that I'd put up with just about any region in the country, (the same for wineries, although we have more catching up there), festivals, art events, diversity, and more that folks from Austin to NY to Portland are becoming aware of and I'm just amazed and proud of how much Oklahoma has grown and changed over the past two decades.

[soondoc]

Then why bother participating here if you feel this way, because you don't contribute anything positive besides the three person circle you know what that you negative three spend all your time doing.

I see awesome stuff happening that people from other areas, relatives from Seattle and Portland, friends who just moved here from Phoenix, and folks who've lived here their whole lives are constantly impressed with. Bricktown continues to grow and be amazing. I look at developments like Chisholm Creek, some of the great local bars that are developing, a local beer scene that I'd put up with just about any region in the country, (the same for wineries, although we have more catching up there), festivals, art events, diversity, and more that folks from Austin to NY to Portland are becoming aware of and I'm just amazed and proud of how much Oklahoma has grown and changed over the past two decades.

No offense, but you need to read more of my posts. I have posted some really good ideas about the CC and CC Hotel but that seems to just get ignored. Here is the deal, we all want OKC to be great and like I said it has gotten much better. However, we have too much of what I explained in my previous post for it to become what it truly could be. I don't think you have to be a sunshine pumper on here to contribute and sometimes you have to call things as they are unfortunately. OKC's local leaders have not been what we need lately, our state government is a national laughing stock and has ran off companies who otherwise would have located here. Some of you really need to realize that just because a few of us on here don't agree with the rest and don't want to follow all the other sheep on here, it doesn't mean that we are not entitled to contribute our thoughts and ideas. Forums need a ying and yang and when someone doesn't like something, you all go in all attack mode for not following the other sheep in these threads. I love OKC, but it is not ever going to be what a few of us want it to be for obvious reasons. Get mad about that all you want but it is the truth.

[bchris02]

Flipping the table is neither mature nor productive. I think there is a constant negativity which seems so pervasive in some folks' minds about OKC. "OKC will never" , "OKC could never", "Progress is dying", "No new stuff is happening", etc, etc. So much of an immature and a grass is always greener mindset, and quite a bit of an inferiority complex.

I think the negativity is heightened lately for a few reasons. First, OKC has been embarrassed in the national and international media almost daily so far in 2015 for one reason or another, from the anti-hoodie bill to some of the most extreme anti-gay laws in the western world. Meanwhile the legislature can't even push through a bill allowing cold beer in liquor stores because of special interest groups. A lot of people I know are talking about wanting to leave the state because of it. Actions at 23rd and Lincoln do have consequences. Secondly, things were really taking off in OKC development wise and how we have the cloud of low oil prices putting numerous things into question. There is no longer the "sky is the limit" feeling when it comes to OKC development that this city has enjoyed the past five years or so. On top of that, there is all of the issues and frustrations with the Preftakes Block, the ClayCo TIF, and the convention center debacle. It adds up.

All of that said, there is still a lot of good things happening here and plenty to be positive about. Chisholm Creek is going to be one of the coolest places in Oklahoma when it is built. The Wheeler District will also be amazing. The new ClayCo skyscraper will be one of the nicest looking in the entire skyline and will be a sharp contrast to the glass box that the 499 Sheridan development will be. Sometimes its easy to focus too much on the negative and downplay the positive. That is something I am too often guilty of.

[jerrywall]

It's possible to live comfortably without a car in Dallas, something that currently cannot be done in OKC.

I disagree. You might say it's "more difficult" but to say it cannot be done is flat out untrue. There's absolutely no reason someone couldn't live in the downtown, Deep Deuce or Automobile Alley area and have a carless existence. I know a few. The biggest limitation is employment, but if you work in the area or where bussing works out, then there is no reason. There's sufficient retail to support living there, and you add in the grocery delivery, bike rentals, uber, and more, it's actually fairly easy.

I do agree there are less car free living options in OKC, but it's also hard to compare a city of Dallas' size to OKC in that regard. But you could make the same statement about NYC or Chicago vs Dallas.

[Bullbear]

I really think you would enjoy Dallas more than you think. They have some great urban districts scattered throughout the metro area. It's possible to live comfortably without a car in Dallas, something that currently cannot be done in OKC.

Possible but how many do? I am in Dallas several times a month and have a very large social circle in Dallas . I don't know many people who do not have a car. Dallas is great but this conversation just gets crazy going back and forth and its all subjective. People can post how wonderful Dallas is and all they have that make them awesome and other people can look at that list and say " meh that doesn't matter to me". If I wanted "DALLAS" I would move there.

[bchris02]

I disagree. You might say it's "more difficult" but to say it cannot be done is flat out untrue. There's absolutely no reason someone couldn't live in the downtown, Deep Deuce or Automobile Alley area and have a carless existence. I know a few. The biggest limitation is employment, but if you work in the area or where bussing works out, then there is no reason. There's sufficient retail to support living there, and you add in the grocery delivery, bike rentals, uber, and more, it's actually fairly easy.

I do agree there are less car free living options in OKC, but it's also hard to compare a city of Dallas' size to OKC in that regard. But you could make the same statement about NYC or Chicago vs Dallas.

I agree with you that it's possible to live without a car in OKC but I wouldn't call it comfortable. That is why I said "comfortably without a car" rather than saying you couldn't live without a car period. In Dallas its possible to have everything you need within walking distance or a DART train ride away. Living without a car in OKC can be done but it takes creativity and I don't see why anybody would want to. Downtown is still lacking a lot of essential amenities that make it a hassle even WITH a car let alone without one.

[TU 'cane]

I think the negativity is heightened lately for a few reasons. First, OKC has been embarrassed in the national and international media almost daily so far in 2015 for one reason or another, from the anti-hoodie bill to some of the most extreme anti-gay laws in the western world. Meanwhile the legislature can't even push through a bill allowing cold beer in liquor stores because of special interest groups. A lot of people I know are talking about wanting to leave the state because of it. Actions at 23rd and Lincoln do have consequences. Secondly, things were really taking off in OKC development wise and how we have the cloud of low oil prices putting numerous things into question. There is no longer the "sky is the limit" feeling when it comes to OKC development that this city has enjoyed the past five years or so. On top of that, there is all of the issues and frustrations with the Preftakes Block, the ClayCo TIF, and the convention center debacle. It adds up.

All of that said, there is still a lot of good things happening here and plenty to be positive about. Chisholm Creek is going to be one of the coolest places in Oklahoma when it is built. The Wheeler District will also be amazing. The new ClayCo skyscraper will be one of the nicest looking in the entire skyline and will be a sharp contrast to the glass box that the 499 Sheridan development will be. Sometimes its easy to focus too much on the negative and downplay the positive. That is something I am too often guilty of.

In bold, nailed it.

This isn't just happening in OKC, it's statewide right now.
Many people seem to be in an Oklahoma Guilt mood because of some things that have been going on recently and their only avenue to vent is the Internet and it's various forums... Naturally, this makes for a perfect storm in regard to certain things, and right now, it's cool to be a guilty Oklahoman. Naturally, everything OKC or the state itself is scrutinized and made fun of right now. Even things like small developments are seeing attitudes trip around them just because people are a little perturbed right now.

It's been going on for probably the last 4-5 months, and most recently has really ignited for a few reasons we all know.

Part of being an Okie, and I specify an Okie because not every state is like this, is picking each other up, brushing the dust off, and getting back on the proverbial horse. Now is a time we need to practice that again instead of whining and taking out frustrations on everything.

[bchris02]

Possible but how many do? I am in Dallas several times a month and have a very large social circle in Dallas . I don't know many people who do not have a car. Dallas is great but this conversation just gets crazy going back and forth and its all subjective. People can post how wonderful Dallas is and all they have that make them awesome and other people can look at that list and say " meh that doesn't matter to me". If I wanted "DALLAS" I would move there.

I brought up the living without a car thing because that is something that matters to Kerry. Dallas has a perception of being only sprawl, traffic, and suburbia but it has areas that do the urban thing very, very well.

[jerrywall]

Downtown is still lacking a lot of essential amenities that make it a hassle even WITH a car let alone without one.

Which ones are you saying are missing, out of curiosity? The only one I can think of off the top of my head might be a drug store, and even then I'm not sure if that's correct.

[BG918]

In bold, nailed it.

This isn't just happening in OKC, it's statewide right now.
Many people seem to be in an Oklahoma Guilt mood because of some things that have been going on recently and their only avenue to vent is the Internet and it's various forums... Naturally, this makes for a perfect storm in regard to certain things, and right now, it's cool to be a guilty Oklahoman. Naturally, everything OKC or the state itself is scrutinized and made fun of right now. Even things like small developments are seeing attitudes trip around them just because people are a little perturbed right now.

It's been going on for probably the last 4-5 months, and most recently has really ignited for a few reasons we all know.

Part of being an Okie, and I specify an Okie because not every state is like this, is picking each other up, brushing the dust off, and getting back on the proverbial horse. Now is a time we need to practice that again instead of whining and taking out frustrations on everything.

I've noticed the same thing. Lots of pessimism that didn't exist this time last year. A lot can be tied directly to oil prices as well as the media reporting the latest hijinks at the capital as well as the SAE scandal.

[jerrywall]

I've noticed the same thing. Lots of pessimism that didn't exist this time last year. A lot can be tied directly to oil prices as well as the media reporting the latest hijinks at the capital as well as the SAE scandal.

Every time I see those kind of posts I just think of this....



I've got a friend of mine who constantly laments "Things are just so bad.. they're just worse in Oklahoma than they've ever been..." And every time all I can do is roll my eyes. But she's young, and so has very little experience/comparative history to make. It's like when someone I know posted on facebook that they feel that they're living through the worse racial strife in this state's history.. I mentioned there's some folks from Tulsa from the Greenwood District who would love to have a conversation.

[jccouger]

Panda was actually spot on. Sadly, Dallas will most likely ever be jealous of anything in OKC,. Fact it, for all the improvements and strides this city has made, it will never be more than what it currently is and that is just "average" for several reasons. The main reason is although their are many bright minds with incredible vision of what this city could be, most of them leave to go to places like DFW or Austin. The fact is that this city and state are controlled by a select few (ironic isn't it) that run the show. For them to brag about intrusion from the government, and pro-business, etc., our leaders are some of the most hypocritical, corrupt people in the nation that operate under the name of good, yet actually support a few select few. I don't think that will ever change. It will scare off many more companies who might otherwise want to be a part of this city. In fact, i bet in 20 years from now, Oklahoma will still have the same liquor laws in place that support the few chosen ones that have paid off the people down at the Capitol. Also, in 20 years from now, the Cotton Mill will still be in place and the lower end of BT will still be Hogan owned and in decline. Also, OKC's airport will have more more terminal and mild increase in traffic yet not be a top 75 in the country in size. OKC simply does not have the vision like other places or ways to make things happen. They finds ways to cheap out on so many things and that is what seperates us from them.

Don't think any of the above will ever make DFW jealous. I will say this however. Their is one thing about KC that has and does make people jealous. For a much smaller city, the Country Club Plaza is one of the coolest areas in the country. It is modeled after Seville, Spain and is simply amazing. If anyone has not been there, it is worth the trip to check out. It is fun in the spring and summer, not bad in the fall and magical at Christmas time. It all begins with the lighting festival where a half of a million people gather for it on Thanksgiving night. DFW has nothing like that, I wish OKC could re-create something similiar near DT.

Cliff notes man, cliff notes. You obviously have some ideas, whether good or bad. Just try to shorten them so people will actually attempt to read your posts. Its OK to formulate ideas in to 2 or 3 lines that get your point across.

[adaniel]

I too have noticed creeping negativity the past few months. I just assumed it was the gloomy winter and anxiety over the economy.

Okies can be a neurotic bunch, thats for sure. I'd stop short of calling it an inferiority complex, but IMO most people who live in OK are far harder on the place than outsiders who are supposedly harshly judging the state. In all my travels outside the state I've never been questioned about the state's legislature, political leanings, or alcohol laws. I HAVE for Texas, ironically. Heck, I was just up there last weekend for a B Day party with other people from out of state and they were all very complimentary on OKC. Then I come on here and the sky is falling. I guess I missed it LOL.

I remember when Chesapeake and SD were going through their reorganization back in 2012/13 and some of the posts on here were just hyperbolic nonsense about how OKC was just about to fall apart, the good times were over, blah blah blah. As if this place is the only city in America that had an issue with a large employer.

Speaking of, there is a thread on the board that is full of nothing but good press for OKC and its barely read. Someone posted an article about OKC's economy being diversified and it was promptly ripped to shreds. There's nothing wrong with not taking things a face value, but when the doom squad is actively looking for things to degrade, that should tell you something.

[adaniel]

Possible but how many do? I am in Dallas several times a month and have a very large social circle in Dallas . I don't know many people who do not have a car. Dallas is great but this conversation just gets crazy going back and forth and its all subjective. People can post how wonderful Dallas is and all they have that make them awesome and other people can look at that list and say " meh that doesn't matter to me". If I wanted "DALLAS" I would move there.

I've now lived in Dallas for about a year now and TBH I am not clicking with it. My experience is probably different than most since I spent some of my childhood here and as the old saying goes, "you can never go home again." I'm going to give it one more year before deciding anything. Its not a bad city by any means, but visiting on the weekend and living here are two completely different things.

Much like OKC, DFW is a good place to "establish base," but If I can be so blunt, I find the amount of activities really lacking for an area of 7 million people.

[Bullbear]

I've now lived in Dallas for about a year now and TBH I am not clicking with it. My experience is probably different than most since I spent some of my childhood here and as the old saying goes, "you can never go home again." I'm going to give it one more year before deciding anything. Its not a bad city by any means, but visiting on the weekend and living here are two completely different things.

Much like OKC, DFW is a good place to "establish base," but If I can be so blunt, I find the amount of activities really lacking for an area of 7 million people.

I enjoy Dallas and I have a room established at a friends house that we stay in several times a month. I enjoy the music scene and have lots of friends there. I could easily move to Dallas if I desired as my Job can be accomodated however I prefer having it as my home away from home.

[bchris02]

I've now lived in Dallas for about a year now and TBH I am not clicking with it. My experience is probably different than most since I spent some of my childhood here and as the old saying goes, "you can never go home again." I'm going to give it one more year before deciding anything. Its not a bad city by any means, but visiting on the weekend and living here are two completely different things.

Different places fit different personalities. A friend of mine who is a psychologist says it takes a person two years to fully adjust to a new city and if it still isn't a good fit after two years, then look at relocating.

I spent some of my childhood in OKC then spent several years away and then moved back because of the Great Recession. It's been hard to "click" with it since I've been back and I am approaching the three year mark. When I go down to Dallas I feel at home, like I belong there and I can't put my finger on why. I am trying my best to enjoy this city for what it offers though and those who know me in person know that I am not as negative as I sometimes come across on OKCTalk.

Much like OKC, DFW is a good place to "establish base," but If I can be so blunt, I find the amount of activities really lacking for an area of 7 million people.

I don't really think so, but it is a very multi-polar metro area so it can seem that way. It also really helps if you do click with your city. If you don't, no matter what activities are available you might still find yourself bored or out of place. When I lived in Charlotte I heard a lot of "boring" complaints from northeastern transplants but my life was full there.

[jerrywall]

I don't really think so, but it is a very multi-polar metro area so it can seem that way. It also really helps if you do click with your city. If you don't, no matter what activities are available you might still find yourself bored or out of place.

I agree with this strongly. I hear all the time people complaining theres nothing to do in OKC, and I'm always floored. If anything, I have trouble making choices when planning my evenings/weekends, with all the shows, concerts, events, etc that go on.

[adaniel]

Bchris you are right that Dallas is very multi polar, which is very much to its detriment IMO. And at 7 million, DFW is now the size of the Bay Area or Philly, and I would argue that DFW simply does not hold a candle to either place. It could get there one day, however. You do have the traffic level of those cities, however. I don't care what Plutonic Panda rants, I live it everyday. And it ain't fun.

[bchris02]

Bchris you are right that Dallas is very multi polar, which is very much to its detriment IMO. And at 7 million, DFW is now the size of the Bay Area or Philly, and I would argue that DFW simply does not hold a candle to either place. It could get there one day, however. You do have the traffic level of those cities, however. I don't care what Plutonic Panda rants, I live it everyday. And it ain't fun.

Every time I have ever dealt with DFW traffic I have been underwhelmed by how bad it actually is compared to how bad people say it is. If you want to see bad traffic, take a trek down to Houston. At rush hour, you'll be lucky to go more than 5 mph from downtown all the way to Conroe. As for comparison to Philly or the Bay Area, Dallas simply doesn't have the history or the density those places have. San Francisco is a truly unique place and Philly is part of the greater Bos-Wash corridor. When it comes down to actual things to do though, you'll find they are a lot more comparable.

[Zorba]

Massive wall of text

Dallas is great. That doesn't mean they have everything. Me saying that some other city has something Dallas doesn't have, people like, does not mean I am bashing Dallas. Dallas does not have everything, for example, there is not a single casino in Texas. Nor does DFW (ATM) have a massively connect trail system. Yes, they have trails all over the place (I've got two books on them, thanks for the links though), but there isn't a 25 mile paved trail, much less a lit one. Turkey mountain isn't great, but it is still urban hiking/MTB that Dallas doesn't have a match for.

The white water facility will provide a place to practice and enjoy white water activities, without traveling out of state. It does not replace great white water destinations any more than Rocktown replaces Yosemite, but I can have a lot more fun in Yosemite because I go to Rocktown. Sure if I had unlimited time off, I would just live in Yosemite and not care about Rocktown, but that is not reality.

Me saying the White Water facility will interest some people in Dallas does not mean I am saying OKC is better, or that Dallas will be jealous of the entirety of OKC. Just that a segment of the population of DFW will wish they had one of their own and will probably visit ours from time to time.

[dankrutka]

Man, I am down there like once a week and sometimes more.

Bellaboo, no offense to your relatives, but that statement is complete bullsh!t. You do NOT have to plan around traffic in Dallas. Rush hour does NOT go from 3 to 7. I was on the NDT last week doing 92 at 4:20 with one small slow down at Lover LN and then it sped back up to about 70 or so than slowed back down to about 30-40 from Forest to Beltline and sped back up all the way until I got off at the Sam Rayburn Toll. I was getting close to 100 in some spots never getting below 75. This notion here that Dallas has nightmare traffic is laughable.

I have been stuck in bad traffic before in Dallas, but is nothing worse than what I have encountered here during a wreck. Every large city is going to have bad traffic during hour. Highways get congested in Dallas during hour. Yes, it happens. In a city of 7 million people, I don't care if you have 50 lane highways, you are going to see congestion. I have experienced traffic in L.A. and Houston and THAT is bad traffic. Dallas highways do a pretty damn good job at moving people and the cry baby urbanist need to shut up and just stay out of the city if the highways bother them.

This is absolutely true. I actually live here... now. The traffic is so bad because everything is, and for the foreseeable future will be, under construction that you have to plan your life around the terrible traffic if you want to avoid it. Honestly, I'd love to explore DFW more, but I just don't because the traffic is insane. I can't emphasize how much better it is to drive in OKC (Wichita is better than both... I never hit traffic, literally, when I lived there).

Also, Dallas' mass transit is not good (see Jeff Speck's recent book as he details why it did everything wrong).

I like a lot about the DFW metro. There are lots of cool districts and increasing density in Dallas, but when it comes to any type of transportation - car, mass, or walking - Dallas has absolutely failed. It's definitely the thing I hate most about the metro and it prevents me from doing so many things because getting around in DFW stinks.

[hoya]

I just discovered this guy with his crazy videos today.



Thought they were awesome. So I did a little searching.

Smooth McGroove - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gleason currently lives in Oklahoma City with his cat Charl and his wife.

Take that, Dallas.