University of Oklahoma SAE Fraternity Closed After Racist Video

[RadicalModerate]

To adaniel: How much does it cost you to keep that fossilized cultural hate furnace burning. My guess would be close to a lot. A suggestion from Born in '52: Get over it fer cryin' out loud and move on. (Dumbass Loudmouthed A(((hole FratBoys on a Bus? Dang.) Seriously: WTF is it about this that generated 250 posts? Pseudo-Liberal Guilt? 'r Whut?

Edited to correct the spelling of Pseudo. No connection, whatsoever, with SAE . . . nor even Sigma Alpha Delta.

[foodiefan]

I was not confusing the two at all. Sig Ep and SAE are two major national fraternities which have eliminated pledging. Sig Ep has their "Balanced Man" program, which has actually had decent results... and I think they are now required to fully initiate new members within a very short time frame. SAE has recently done this as well. This has been done because both groups had historically been tagged with large judgments and settlements due to hazing incidents.

??? not sure I understand your comment. . okatty asked for clarification, which I provided . . .

[betts]

Maybe I'm a pseudo-liberal, but I happen to agree with adaniel. I cannot imagine how awful it must be to continually have to deal with discrimination that you know intellectually and emotionally is totally unfounded for a lifetime. I think it explains and excuses any anger demonstrated.

[BBatesokc]

Personally, I think the only thing expelling those two kids accomplished was to ensure that "No Cell Phones Allowed" signs will now be posted at all Fraternity private events.

[RadicalModerate]

Maybe I'm a pseudo-liberal, but I happen to agree with adaniel. I cannot imagine how awful it must be to continually have to deal with discrimination that you know intellectually and emotionally is totally unfounded for a lifetime. I think it explains and excuses any anger demonstrated.

Good for you. Obviously the entire scenario pissed you off, too.
How about: "Off with their heads" . . ?
As in Alice in Wonderland.

[jerrywall]

Nope. They can't. Please extrapolate on your unfounded observation.
(I abhor what you say, yet it will defend to my death your right to say it, even if I am wrong.)

White men singing about lynching would seem pretty threatening to me if I was black.

[ljbab728]

Pete - since you were a DU, here's a story I posted yesterday on Facebook that you may know something about:

The evil racist chant video from SAE fraternity members gives me the opportunity to tell a story. Back when I went to OU, one of my good friends in the 1967 OU President's Leadership Class was Tony Gilkey. He became the first Black member of a predominately white fraternity at OU. Tony invited me to visit his fraternity, Delta Upsilon, and they asked me to join (my sophomore year). This was the only fraternity I really considered joining since they also had Jewish members and Native American members. When I was a freshman, I always asked other fraternities that I visited if they had any Black or Jewish members at their chapter & I often received a chilly negative response.

During the summer before my freshman year, one fraternity took me to see James Brown performing at the Municipal Auditorium. I later discovered they were all white, all Christian & intended to stay that way, so I had no interest in pledging that fraternity -- or any other since no fraternity back then (that was rushing me) was interested in making changes to the status quo.

I was OU in a fraternity during that same time period. My fraternity did not have any black members but certainly had Jewish members.

[RadicalModerate]

Oh! Betts: Just in case your emotional energy supply isn't depleted . . .

(for the sake of clarification (imho): the fratboys on the bus should be horsewhipped and then given them a one-way ticket to Singapore without passports.)

[RadicalModerate]

White men singing about lynching would seem pretty threatening to me if I was black.

Maybe it is simply the TotalDumbA$$ BS of Youth in flower? Nah. That can't be right. Or left.

[jerrywall]

Maybe it is simply the TotalDumbA$$ BS of Youth in flower? Nah. That can't be right. Or left.

Trouble with that is it could excuse about anything, including a bunch of frat guys deciding to dress in full Klan regalia for Halloween as a theme costume....

[RadicalModerate]

White men singing about lynching would seem pretty threatening to me if I was black.

I agree. Except for the use of the phrase "White men". White punks is closer to the truth. Isn't it?

[Jim Kyle]

Even hate speech is protected speech.

I couldn't agree with you more about that; however all speech has consequences, and if there's a pre-existing student policy that all students were required to accept as a condition for enrollment, with expulsion from the student body as a potential consequence of its violation, and if this speech violated that policy, seems to this layman as if the University should have a prima facie defense.

Of course, there's no predicting at all as to what a jury will decide (except perhaps in Chicago or Los Angeles). In some areas, not everyone stays bought.

(Note well my journalistic training; by never being specific, I've not libelled anyone with this message.)

[RadicalModerate]

Trouble with that is it could excuse about anything, including a bunch of frat guys deciding to dress in full Klan regalia for Halloween as a theme costume....

Yup. Can't argue with that.
(edited to add: at least not in an effective manner)
(this is close to "The Best Chess/Backgammon Game" ever.
I wish I'd paid more attention to the nuances of Bridge . . .

[Pete]

Regarding the integration of fraternities, when I was at OU from '78 to '82 there was almost zero integration.

There were then and I believe still are now exclusively black fraternities and exclusively Jewish fraternities. And I mean under the auspices of the Inter Fraternity Council, not just random Greek-letter organizations on campus.

I know at that time only one non-black fraternity had a black guy as a member, and that was Lambda Chi Alpha. But that was a huge deal and I don't think he stayed in the house very long. That was the only example in my 4 years there.

Certainly, there were Jewish guys in most houses back then.

But it's pretty ridiculous that even in the 80's that fraternities were still completely segregated. That's a red flag right there.


Also, when I was president my senior year, there was a huge issue about gay members. At that time, it was just naively assumed that everyone in the house was straight but I believe a couple of guys started to be pretty open about being gay and then all hell broke loose. Lots of other guys came out in support and there was a massive conflict that I had to help arbitrate.

Let's just say that I was not proud of how most the people acted in that situation and that there is danger in having a large group of college guys living under one roof and collectively deciding what type of lifestyle is appropriate. The fact they are already living in one house and part of a closely-knit brotherhood allows for tyranny that would never happen in the dorms or anywhere else.

And as much as I loved my experience and would be deeply saddened if they closed all fraternities at OU (well, at least mine) I think that a group-of-straight-white-guys-under-one-college-roof syndrome often yields really bad decisions and can facilitate a larger group action that is far more dangerous than a few guys sitting around a dorm or apartment would ever be.

And frankly, I see those dynamics clearly at play in this SAE situation.

[venture]

Trouble with that is it could excuse about anything, including a bunch of frat guys deciding to dress in full Klan regalia for Halloween as a theme costume....

Agreed. It would almost seem this is the underlying issue that allows these type of feelings/actions to permeate and continuing to exist. If we continue to keep saying "oh they are just being kids", "oh they are just immature", "oh they are just being stupid"...especially about adults who really should know better or have a good grasp of the concept, when will it every stop?

This is just one example where a parent, community, or network of people have followed the "oh they are just" line of thought have failed in properly bringing up the individuals involved. Racism is really something that should be very well extinguished by now, but it'll continue to go on as long as we keep fostering the beliefs by remaining ignorant to them. It isn't just racism though and it isn't just members of a fraternity. We see it every day in our local community, politics, and the global stage. People continue to do harm to others because they are different - race, age, sex, orientation, religion, etc.

I'm not sure what can be done to stop it. There will always be someone out there trying to undo every goodwill movement towards a unified society. Divide and conquer is alive and well. Anything short of a global extinction crisis (maybe exaggerating a bit - I hope) seem to have dim prospects of working.

[Jim Kyle]

Expulsion is not the right answer in my opinion - yes, even if the tables were turned and it was some other race making the same comments regarding whites.

While Channel 9 was waiting for Boren to arrive at the podium, Karl was interviewing a member of the faculty who apparently specialized in such matters, and the subject of expulsion came up. The faculty member was adamant that was NOT a good option; he pointed out that removing a student from the educational environment was NOT a way to educate him toward more acceptable behavior.

Seems to me he had a point. We're now in a position similar to the "security theater" so prevalent for the past 13+ years -- actions are being taken for their publicity potential, with no regard for their possible help, of lack of same, toward solving the obvious problem. I have no doubt at all that the two ex-students will be perceived as martyrs by some extremists...

[RadicalModerate]

Legalisms:
Free Speech (1st Amendment) . . .
(no photography)
Guilty/Whatever.

[RadicalModerate]

While Channel 9 was waiting for Boren to arrive at the podium, Karl was interviewing a member of the faculty who apparently specialized in such matters, and the subject of expulsion came up. The faculty member was adamant that was NOT a good option; he pointed out that removing a student from the educational environment was NOT a way to educate him toward more acceptable behavior.

Seems to me he had a point. We're now in a position similar to the "security theater" so prevalent for the past 13+ years -- actions are being taken for their publicity potential, with no regard for their possible help, of lack of same, toward solving the obvious problem. I have no doubt at all that the two ex-students will be perceived as martyrs by some extremists...

So . . . You, too, have a problem with Mr. Boren? =)
Just kidding. Mr. Kyle.

[Jim Kyle]

at that time (1957), SAE was basically a Jewish fraternity

I thought so, too, but a quick check via Google for the organization's history shows that it was organized several years before "The Late Unpleasantness" (aka in the South as The War of Northern Aggression but I prefer to call it The War Between the States" since it was anything BUT civil), in the antebellum South, and was quite proud of its Confederate history.

When I was there as a Gamma Delta Iota, from 1948 to 1952, there was an all-Jewish fraternity, and also a similar sorority, but I no longer remember the names of either. I suspect the frat's Greek letters were very close to those of SAE for both of us to have similar memories...

[Pete]

Sigma Alpha Mu (Sammies) was the Jewish fraternity at OU not Sigma Alpha Epsilon (SAE's).

I believe you guys are confusing them.

[Jim Kyle]

Maybe I'm a pseudo-liberal, but I happen to agree with adaniel. I cannot imagine how awful it must be to continually have to deal with discrimination that you know intellectually and emotionally is totally unfounded for a lifetime. I think it explains and excuses any anger demonstrated.

I agree fully with your first two sentences, but seriously disagree with the third. My problem with it is the verb "demonstrated" -- I could agree fully, had you said "felt" or "expressed" instead.

But "demonstrated" immediately brings to my mind the images of Detroit, Watts, or Ferguson -- mobs rioting and looting under the pretense of expressing justified anger -- and I cannot agree with that in any way.

Just thought this point needs to be made, after seeing a video clip yesterday in which a young black (presumably a student) made threatening gestures with what appeared to be a .45 automatic, yelling "Bang!" The anger can run out of anyone's control, all too easily.

[Jim Kyle]

So . . . You, too, have a problem with Mr. Boren? =)
Just kidding. Mr. Kyle.

Matter of fact, he's a darned good politician, from a family with a long history of being involved in state and national politics. And these days, a politician rather than an academic is what's needed at the helm of a major university. In this matter he's showing an excellent grasp of public relations and the need to do something immediately even if it's insufficient or (horrors) wrong...

Only time will tell whether he's taking the most appropriate actions, though.

[Motley]

You cannot lump the rioters and looters that are using the pretense of anger to loot and vandalize with those protesters that are legitimately and rightfully demonstrating and showing their anger and frustration at the wrongs committed against them. It is not fair to discount all the anger in demonstrators based on the acts of bad seeds any more than it is fair to say all members of the frat are racist based on the acts of those on the bus. The looters are not demonstrating anger, they are using it to their advantage in conducting illegal activities.

[Jim Kyle]

Sigma Alpha Mu (Sammies) was the Jewish fraternity at OU not Sigma Alpha Epsilon (SAE's).

I believe you guys are confusing them.

I'm sure that you are correct!!! Thanks for clearing that up; my inability to come up with the correct name was bothering me.

[Uncle Slayton]

The blogosphere and what passes for news media continues in full-scream mode. The dudgeon level is logarithmically high and might require the development of an entirely new assessment scale to put the numbers in context. Everyone seems trying to be more offended than the previous indignant screamer. It's a real head-scratcher to me since (until the graffiti), not one dime's worth of property had been destroyed, nor life or limb injured or even imperiled.

I think the expulsion is probably going to result in lawsuits against the university that will ultimately be successful for the plaintiffs, long after the digital generation has moved on to become obsessed with the next Miley twerk or Kardashian fart.

Meanwhile, back in Norman, the only people who will really be cleaning up are the arthroscopic surgeons repairing ACL tears from repetitive knee-jerk syndrome.

Frat guys do stupid $hit? Of all the things within the realm of possibility, as god is my witness, I never saw that coming.