University of Oklahoma SAE Fraternity Closed After Racist Video

[RadicalModerate]

I think it might be time to cut, posthaste, to the conclusion of this matter of academic and societal import. Perhaps a reviewing of Walt Disney's version of "Song of The South" in order to approach a semi-happy conclusion might be in, or on, order?

[Pete]

if the university is taking the stand they can no longer guarantee the students safety, then I would have hoped he would have given them the opportunity to withdraw on their own and hopefully make a public apology.

I think expelling them does little to defuse their personal situation and actually makes rectifying the situation worse.

They could easily argue that the tension around the situation -- they had a police car parked at the SAE house yesterday -- put more people at risk than just the two guys they expelled.

[Richard at Remax]

As bad as it was I don't know If I can justify expelling just two. its either all or no one.

[RadicalModerate]

This should be required viewing in the basement of that Hateful Frat House.
No . . . not Required . . . simply acceptable and winsome.

[Outhunder]

Very interesting legal side to this. As bad as it was, it was just words. Makes you wonder if OU takes action against Eric Striker. The video he put out was less than flattering.

[BBatesokc]

They could easily argue that the tension around the situation -- they had a police car parked at the SAE house yesterday -- put more people at risk than just the two guys they expelled.

I'm not disagreeing with that. Going forward you still have at least two young adults that have basically taken the fall for a much bigger issue (that they were directly a part of). They could have been given the opportunity to withdraw and then seek to continue their college educations somewhere else. The expulsion will create a record that will not be easy to overcome when applying for enrollment elsewhere. I know many here will not be sympathetic to that. But its a reality and I don't think anyone here thinks we were really dealing with card carrying, hood wearing Klansmen. We are dealing with kids right out of high school who were obviously taught a song by upperclassmen they are going to want to impress and fit in with. I'm not coddling them, I just think justice can be served with more rational options. Sure, those options won't give some people the warm feeling of mob justice, but that's just me.

[adaniel]

I doubt the correct legal answer has Boren losing any sleep. Having litigated against the University in the past, their staff attorneys do an excellent job and more than know their way around a federal courthouse.

Bingo. They have a pretty sizable general counsel and I'm sure they went through this with a fine toothed comb. DBo ain't playin here.

The language in that letter of creating a "hostile learning environment" seems broad but probably more than covers getting rid of these students. Not a lawyer but did stay at a Holiday Inn.

And who actually thinks these students are going to lawyer up and fight this? In all likelihood they were probably already getting their transfer paperwork in order.

[RadicalModerate]

The University of Oklahoma (apparently) needs to be shut down and rebuilt from the bottom up. (gggggz)
(mostly on account of some FratDudes with apparent permission.)

[dankrutka]

Very interesting legal side to this. As bad as it was, it was just words. Makes you wonder if OU takes action against Eric Striker. The video he put out was less than flattering.

Totally different. Eric Striker's anger was against racism and completely understandable. Besides his apology was legit. The SAE video advocated lynching and hanging black people.

Again, it's interesting that there's so much focus here on these white SAE students and their fate and almost no discussion of what it's like to be a person of color on OU's campus. Kicking these guys off campus is just an immediate reaction. How is OU going to address the larger issues? Everyone is fooling themselves if they think this is an isolated incident. The problems go deeper. We need to worry less about OU's image and more about the actual problem. Oklahoma is a place where a legislator like Kern can rant stereotypes about black people without public outcry or even a challenger in the next election. Again, there are bigger issues here..,

[jn1780]

Bingo. They have a pretty sizable general counsel and I'm sure they went through this with a fine toothed comb. DBo ain't playin here.

The language in that letter of creating a "hostile learning environment" seems broad but probably more than covers getting rid of these students. Not a lawyer but did stay at a Holiday Inn.

And who actually thinks these students are going to lawyer up and fight this? In all likelihood they were probably already getting their transfer paperwork in order.

Pretty sure some of the words sung by the students can be described as threatening in nature.

[dankrutka]

I'm not disagreeing with that. Going forward you still have at least two young adults that have basically taken the fall for a much bigger issue (that they were directly a part of). They could have been given the opportunity to withdraw and then seek to continue their college educations somewhere else. The expulsion will create a record that will not be easy to overcome when applying for enrollment elsewhere. I know many here will not be sympathetic to that. But its a reality and I don't think anyone here thinks we were really dealing with card carrying, hood wearing Klansmen. We are dealing with kids right out of high school who were obviously taught a song by upperclassmen they are going to want to impress and fit in with. I'm not coddling them, I just think justice can be served with more rational options. Sure, those options won't give some people the warm feeling of mob justice, but that's just me.

The punishment is completely fair. These guys likely have the type of networks that they'll have opportunities that many people of color never have in life. The main guy attended an elite Dallas private school and has likely been privileged his entire life.

And, yes, there is no doubt this kid is racist. I guess you have a stereotype of racists as actually wearing Klan garb and carrying out lynchings. You have to be racist to do, much less lead, that chant in public. That chant would never come out of my mouth or so many people I know. There's no way around that. Does that mean he could grow? It's possible. But there'so no question this kid is racist. That doesn't mean every aspect of who he is is bad. We're all complex. Everyone stereotypes groups. The racism of many people is indirect. If you define racism as holding negative stereotypes then almost everyone is racist or bigoted in some way. It takes humility to admit that and work against it. However, there is no reasonable definition of racism in which this kid does not fit.

Last point, these kids did not "take the fal." For others. They were THE leaders. It's not like the video was of two kids kind of mouthing the words. The dude was pumping his fists and trying to bring everyone into his chant. Did they learn the chant from someone else? Probably. But everything indicates they made a conscious decision to do sing this song on their own.

[OKCisOK4me]

Bingo. The confederate flag is a symbol of racism no matter what "facts" you want to use.

Well, if you're gonna put it like that then only 4.6% of the world sees the US flag as a sign of freedom. I'm betting at least 70% of the rest of the world sees it as an oppressor. Ideaology at its finest.

[Swake]

Totally different. Eric Striker's anger was against racism and completely understandable. Besides his apology was legit. The SAE video advocated lynching and hanging black people.

Again, it's interesting that there's so much focus here on these white SAE students and their fate and almost no discussion of what it's like to be a person of color on OU's campus. Kicking these guys off campus is just an immediate reaction. How is OU going to address the larger issues? Everyone is fooling themselves if they think this is an isolated incident. The problems go deeper. We need to worry less about OU's image and more about the actual problem. Oklahoma is a place where a legislator like Kern can rant stereotypes about black people without public outcry or even a challenger in the next election. Again, there are bigger issues here..,

Interesting how these white adult teenagers get so much more sympathy on this board than a black kids walking home with skittles in the rain or sitting on a park bench with a BB gun.

[Motley]

The university owes no allegiance to these students over the school itself. They damaged the goodwill and national reputation of OU, just as if they took a sledge hammer to windows around campus. You have to expect the leadership of OU would do what it has to to try to repair this, including using its full authority to punish the perpetrators to the extent they can. OU has to show it takes this very seriously to restore its name. If a court were to overturn the decision, OU can at least say they did what they felt was called for, and no less.

[jerrywall]

Interesting how these white adult teenagers get so much more sympathy on this board than a black kids walking home with skittles in the rain or sitting on a park bench with a BB gun.

I haven't seen much in a way of sympathy here (in fact, this thread is overwhelmingly condemning of these boys). Those are some might tiny lines you're trying hard to read between...

[hoya]

The punishment is completely fair. These guys likely have the type of networks that they'll have opportunities that many people of color never have in life. The main guy attended an elite Dallas private school and has likely been privileged his entire life.

And, yes, there is no doubt this kid is racist. I guess you have a stereotype of racists as actually wearing Klan garb and carrying out lynchings. You have to be racist to do, much less lead, that chant in public. That chant would never come out of my mouth or so many people I know. There's no way around that. Does that mean he could grow? It's possible. But there'so no question this kid is racist. That doesn't mean every aspect of who he is is bad. We're all complex. Everyone stereotypes groups. The racism of many people is indirect. If you define racism as holding negative stereotypes then almost everyone is racist or bigoted in some way. It takes humility to admit that and work against it. However, there is no reasonable definition of racism in which this kid does not fit.

Last point, these kids did not "take the fal." For others. They were THE leaders. It's not like the video was of two kids kind of mouthing the words. The dude was pumping his fists and trying to bring everyone into his chant. Did they learn the chant from someone else? Probably. But everything indicates they made a conscious decision to do sing this song on their own.

The video is 10 seconds long and basically shows one guy's back for like 8 of those seconds. We aren't really sure who the "leaders" of it are. You don't know what happened during the time before the video or after the video. The fact that only two guys can be seen doesn't mean that those two are necessarily the leaders.

I was in a fraternity and I definitely didn't come from a privileged family. "These guys likely have the type of networks blah blah blah" is completely unsupported. They might come from wealthy families, they also might not. Right now you have no idea how this is going to affect this kid's life.

At the end of the day, these guys sang a mean song. They didn't assault anybody. They didn't threaten anybody. They didn't commit any crime. They sang a mean song and somebody put it on the internet. They embarrassed the university and pissed a lot of people off.

Is this one kid a racist? I don't know, is Daniel Tosh? The song is racist. Some of the guys singing it are probably a bit racist, or at least think racist things are funny. Eventually you water down the definition of racism to the point that it doesn't mean much of anything anymore. As you said, if you define it as holding some sort of negative stereotype than everyone is racist to a certain degree. So why such an intense reaction here? Is this guy any different from every other person in the world? Except he's on video? You said that song would never come out of your mouth. Me neither, for one I'm not an SAE. But I've said plenty of things that are far more offensive than this, especially in college. If that chant is the worst thing this guy ever says, then he's a saint.

There's not a single person on this thread who has said the song was appropriate. There's not a single person on this thread who has said that the university shouldn't have disbanded the fraternity. But when you're expelling freshmen for making asinine comments in a semi-private place, I think you're going too far.

[venture]

The video is 10 seconds long and basically shows one guy's back for like 8 of those seconds. We aren't really sure who the "leaders" of it are. You don't know what happened during the time before the video or after the video. The fact that only two guys can be seen doesn't mean that those two are necessarily the leaders.

I was in a fraternity and I definitely didn't come from a privileged family. "These guys likely have the type of networks blah blah blah" is completely unsupported. They might come from wealthy families, they also might not. Right now you have no idea how this is going to affect this kid's life.

I guess it isn't concrete on if they are the leader of it, but their identity is out: Parker Rice identified as student expelled from OU after racist chant - OUDaily.com: News

How will it impact his life? Who knows. I'm sure there will be more than a few organizations/companies sympathetic to what he is going through and will take him in. Most probably won't even remember who he is or what he was involved in a month from now.

[Jersey Boss]

Well, if you're gonna put it like that then only 4.6% of the world sees the US flag as a sign of freedom. I'm betting at least 70% of the rest of the world sees it as an oppressor. Ideaology at its finest.

Difference being is that we are talking about our country and how citizens of our country react when their fellow countrymen fly a flag that is considered a symbol of the enslavement of their race.

[catcherinthewry]

I love threads like this one. You can really learn a lot about individual posters. Some people are really showing their "true colors", if you will, here.

And just so I will be on record, the only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance of any kind. What these kids did was wrong and, as Boren said, created a hostile environment which should not be allowed at OU. Anyone who is expelled over this matter has the right to continue his education, just not at OU. Actions have consequences. These kids have just learned that lesson the hard way.

[lwroberts]

I was a fraternity member while at OU. One would think that because at that time (1957), SAE was basically a Jewish fraternity, that through the years, they would the most informed regarding prejudice. My, my, how things must have changed.

[RadicalModerate]

I love threads like this one. You can really learn a lot about individual posters. Some people are really showing their "true colors", if you will, here.

And just so I will be on record, the only thing I can't tolerate is intolerance of any kind. What these kids did was wrong and, as Boren said, created a hostile environment which should not be allowed at OU. Anyone who is expelled over this matter has the right to continue his education, just not at OU. Actions have consequences. These kids have just learned that lesson the hard way.

If one of the lads, behind this so-called cultural abomination/anonomoly had toasted and fired up, for example, a Gran Habano 2002 Corojo Vintage (on the Frat Party Bus currently under discussion) I wonder what else might have gone wrong . . . for sure it would be a learning experience. Note to Self: Always CAO . . . Never SAE. =)

[RadicalModerate]

Difference being is that we are talking about our country and how citizens of our country react when their fellow countrymen fly a flag that is considered a symbol of the enslavement of their race.

It seems to me as if the real problem with this country is that it tends in the direction of reaction rather than res
ponse.

[adaniel]

I hope everyone has a chance to watch the Eric Striker interview on CNN. You can mock the "internet mob" for getting up in arms, but Striker (and a lot of athletes) are genuinely offended. And I don't blame them. Its insulting for mostly black athletes to bust their ass on the field or court, go to 747 and other Norman hangouts where these frat members are backslapping them and being all chummy, only to learn that in private that those same people giving them "attaboys" think they're just N's worthy of their scorn. Because lets not act like this is something isolated. I get the sense most people on campus realize this, whether posters here want to acknowledge it here or not.

I've never been "RAARRR fraternities!" but greek life and it's exclusionary structure can breed racist, sexist, homophobic and/or misogynistic attitudes with relative ease. A greek member at OU admitted as such in this article.. I mean go on BroBible or Total Frat Move and just read the comments. You'll need to take a shower afterwards.

And do not think the damage to OU will go away after the news cycle. The lead story on the news down here in Dallas last night was this fiasco. They went to the home of Jean Delance (the FB player who decommitted) and his mom pretty much confirmed that the video had a major part in him backing away from OU. I also know a person who's very in the know regarding DFW HS sports and tells me D1 coaches are salivating at this as they now have an automatic couterpoint against us (You know, they had that little incident up at OU...you sure you want to go there instead of our school?) . With that, why would any black athlete or student for that matter come to OU right now?

So no, I don't believe the punishment is too harsh. Maybe in another era where the video wouldn't have traveled with such lightning speed and inflicted so much damage to OU the decision may have been lighter. But we don't live in that era anymore, so it is what it is.

[RadicalModerate]

Pretty sure some of the words sung by the students can be described as threatening in nature.

Nope. They can't. Please extrapolate on your unfounded observation.
(I abhor what you say, yet it will defend to my death your right to say it, even if I am wrong.)

[kevinpate]

Yes, this will impact some sports recruiting. Also potential impacts on staff recruiting, national merit scholar recruiting, grants, general student population admissions, donations.

This is bigger than simply one truly stupid song by a handful of blazer wearing frat lads and their dates on one bus on one dinner trip and some hurt/shocked/outraged feelings. This impacts funding and reputation.

And that, dear lasses and laddies, is likely why closing down a frat indefinitely has been determined to not be nearly enough of a response.