University of Oklahoma SAE Fraternity Closed After Racist Video

[Jim Kyle]

As Oprah is fond of saying, "Can't wait for all the old racists to hurry up and die."

The problem that I see is that the extreme polarization we experience today is simply creating new racists. The video clip bears evidence to that, but where are the chants for true brotherhood and equality -- from either side of the obvious and apparently increasing racial divide.

A hundred years ago it was the Irish on the East Coast who were reviled, and the Chinese on the West Coast. What group will it be a hundred years hence?

I do see many bi-racial couples, which in the Fifties was almost unheard of, so the situation is improving. I think it could be speeded, though, if the most vociferous "leaders" of all groups would simply queit down for a while and let we individual humans sort it out...

[Laramie]

The consequence is that now all three of my sons, through bitter experience, have become polarized about such things -- and I see that polarization reflected throughout our nation. Racist leaders -- of all colors -- trumpet the differences and demand retribution. As Orwell noted, some are more equal than others.

I'm sure that this comment will cause me to be labelled as racist by some -- but we have to face the fact that almost nobody, these days, cares about true equality, or searching for the person hidden beneath the outward appearances.

Sure, we have bad cops, and racial profiling exists. Almost 60 years ago when I was following the police beat, the OCPD was totally segregated -- and the black community feared the black officers far more than they did the white ones! Police work, unfortunately, has long appealed to bullies as an easy way to practice their arts with public approval. I've known many good cops; the bad ones are a distinct minority -- but they exist, and come in all colors. That's no reason for professional racists to stir things up.

But as I said, my hopes for an end to racism died long ago -- on the day that I left the northeast quadrant and followed the rest of the white flight. Nothing seems likely to resusicate them...

Jim Kyle you are true to your heart, you have a very keen observation about what occurred; you have your experiences in which to draw your conclusions. Racism & bigotry (not limited to any one race) are like a cancer or disease which you will never eradicate; some you may keep in a dormant state.

Officer Hart (Ben Hart's father) lived behind us across the alley between 6th & 7th/Stonewall & Kelly. This guy lived on the edge of life as an officer, he slept in the living room of their home in a chair with his gun next to him. He was hated by some whites & blacks; especially in the Deep Deuce area. Just imagine what type of life Officer Hart had to endure as he enforced the law. His son, Dr. Ben Hart went on to play for the OU Sooners & the NFL New Orleans Saints. Ben was able to redeem himself as he went back to reclaim his doctorate from OU which was stripped because of controversy.

"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die."--Ted Kennedy

[Jersey Boss]

There's been confederate flags hanging in that house for decades. It just looks worse right now because of what happened at ou. SAEs chapter president last year is an African American. Thats not to say it's not in poor taste because it is but its only news because of ou. Confederate flag hanging is pretty stereotypical fraternity behavior and southern behavior in general. I called the house and the have taken it down. A lot of this is the o'colly trying to get clicks.

A rationalization that I tend to dismiss for the following reasons. Ever see a confederate rag displayed at a predominately black fraternity? Have you ever seen same rag displayed by a southern AA family or individual? To paint this as a southern thing or a fraternity thing is disingenuous.

[jccouger]

I was a DU at OU from '78 to '82 and I know we didn't have any racial lines, but the songs were beyond vulgar.

We did, however, have an elderly housemother from Alabama who only referred to African Americans by the n-word. I hated it and everyone else did too, but she still did it openly and frequently.

The irony is that she was an expert on etiquette and I still remember and carry many of her lessons we were forced to endure.

Just shows how messed up the Southern culture was back in her day where people went to extreme measures to be 'proper', then had such contempt and hatred for people of color.

Ha, I actually rushed & pledged to DU while I was at OU in 2008. I ended up quitting half way through, due to a variety of reasons. None of which were that I actually had a problem with DU, more so just with the greek system in general. I met a lot of cool people, and I met a lot of douchebags. DU was for sure the most down to earth frat IMO, and I would've had no problem staying with them but the whole greek think just wasn't for me.

[Pete]

I do see many bi-racial couples, which in the Fifties was almost unheard of, so the situation is improving.

Until a federal law was passed in 1964, mixed racial marriages were *outlawed* in many states; including Oklahoma.

Let that sink in for a minute.

In other words, when my family moved to Oklahoma in 1963, inter-racial marriages were still strictly against the law; *and* the state had to be forced by the feds to change.

Unbelievable.

[shawnw]

was it already posted that we've already had a de-commit to OU football possibly related to this?

[zookeeper]

Jim is so right. So many things have created a new generation of racists. A lot of it was being called "racist" for things that weren't racist at all and getting fed up with the professional race baiters. Today, we live with the consequences of not only racism, but with the war over racism, whether it is or not.

The chant on the bus was despicable, hard to fathom, until I think about what Jim said. I truly think great progress was being made in this country until many high-profile happenings that set race relations back a few years. There's simply no excuse for that chant, there is also no excuse for "musicians" to make millions of dollars chanting, rapping, racist "music." It all culminates with increased polarization and double-standards.

Who can possibly defend such chanting on that bus?
Who can possibly defend racist music on the radio? Blacks using the 'N' word without shame and understanding that if the word is to be history, it has to stop being used like an everyday greeting.

This incident says a lot about our society. None of it for the better.

[Jersey Boss]

I won't speak for everyone else, but I'm not going to let these imbeciles define me, this state, or the University of Oklahoma.
They are dumb, young, and immature. We say this about nearly all college kids. They just happened to chant this song and it was posted on the Internet, it was a matter of minutes before something like that can start a fire. Not excusing the language they used, but I'm one of those who thinks words are just words, and yes, words can hurt, but things tend to be blown out of proportion too often anymore.

Naturally, the mainstream media has taken hold and is using it to continue the race baiting that is alive and well in this country, sadly.
I couldn't ask President Boren to handle this situation anymore beautifully than he did, with such quick decision that truly showcases his leadership.
OU will get hit for now, ignorant people will hold onto this and use it as some type of ammunition against not only the Sooners, but this state as well. Let them, because they are the ignorant ones. Every state has racists, every state has these dumb fraternities and with their equally dumb chants.

As for the students themselves, they need to be punished, not just the fraternity, and I imagine President Boren will be looking to exercise that to some extent.
As for the comments about the flag... Are we still needing explanation and defense of it? People can say it's a symbol of racism, but it really isn't. Especially in 2015, it's become the symbol of southern pride, not slavery or racism. I know people who own the rebel flag and aren't racist at all, they just evoke pride in being southern.

If what you are saying is factual, why is it I never see southern AA 's showing their southern pride as such? B.S. This rag symbolizes armed insurrection against the established lawful government.

[adaniel]

Watched the press conference with David Boren live this morning. Really proud of OU's leadership right now. He was refreshingly honest about the state of Greek Life, how this is more than just a PR blunder and what OU plans on doing differently in the future. This is how you achieve meaningful change.

Also, it sounds like the school will try and expel some of these students.

[Pete]

David Boren, while not perfect, is a full-on Stud Boy.

The entire state of Oklahoma is lucky to have him.

[adaniel]

was it already posted that we've already had a de-commit to OU football possibly related to this?

Don't believe it has:

Publisher of Sooners fan magazine claims four-star North Mesquite OL Jean Delance decommitted from Oklahoma because of frat incident | Dallas Morning News

[LocoAko]

Until a federal law was passed in 1964, mixed racial marriages were *outlawed* in many states; including Oklahoma.

Let that sink in for a minute.

In other words, when my family moved to Oklahoma in 1963, inter-racial marriages were still strictly against the law; *and* the state had to be forced by the feds to change.

Unbelievable.

Not to mention Norman's (and other's) well-known history of being a Sundown Town into the era you mentioned.

[TU 'cane]

If what you are saying is factual, why is it I never see southern AA 's showing their southern pride as such? B.S. This rag symbolizes armed insurrection against the established lawful government.

You're trying to validate your opinion on the rebel flag (ol' Dixie flag, Confederate flag, etc.) because you haven't seen a few groups of people fly it? That is a far open ended example to use on almost anything. In fact, let me try:

Ford Escapes are for white people because I've never seen a black person driving one. Ergo, it must be a symbol of racism or white supremacy.

Either way, your point is moot:

This man walks around his town dressed in traditional Confederate garb carrying the rebel flag. He's been photographed and video taped for years (just before the 2:00 mark he's states "I'm Southern above all else"):



In all honesty the flag symbolizes many things, just as the U.S. flag does, or ANY flag for that matter.
The U.S. flag, or as you put, "the established lawful government" of the U.S.'s flag, may be a symbol of empire and conquest, or death from above in many Middle Eastern Countries.
It's also seen as a symbol of freedom and promise to other countries.

You clearly claim a very negative view on it, which is fine, that's your right and I won't argue that. But, you're trying to instigate something on a subject that would seem you aren't fully aware of or understanding of, and are using your emotions to try and badmouth it and the people, racist or not, along with it.

Regardless, the subject of all of this is dumb college kids with an extremely archaic and silly chant that got out of hand.
Everyone is falling into the media's play on race and it's really just being blown out of proportion. Racism, sadly, is everywhere and is practiced, not by everyone, but certainly by every race across the world, that's the ugly truth. Not to downplay this, but President Boren took swift action and justice is being served, rightfully so.
That's the core behind all of this, not some flag that these imbeciles hung up on their walls. Which, I'm also sure they had a U.S. flag and State of Oklahoma flag hanging somewhere in that building, too, what then?

[Pete]

In case you were wondering...

I'm the one person from Oklahoma most of my friends and colleagues know here in California.

And this morning, many are contacting me asking what the H is going on back there.


So, there goes a big bunch of the image I've been building up about how OKC is a boomtown and an increasingly progressive place.

Unfortunately, perception = reality.

[BoulderSooner]

Don't believe it has:

Publisher of Sooners fan magazine claims four-star North Mesquite OL Jean Delance decommitted from Oklahoma because of frat incident | Dallas Morning News

The guy has almost decommited a bunch of times in the last few weeks

[jccouger]

In case you were wondering...

I'm the one person from Oklahoma most of my friends and colleagues know here in California.

And this morning, many are contacting me asking what the H is going on back there.


So, there goes a big bunch of the image I've been building up about how OKC is a boomtown and an increasingly progressive place.

Unfortunately perception = reality.

The damage this has done is almost unrepairable. Every member of that frat should be kicked out of OU, I don't care if they were on that bus or not. Every single one of them knew about that chant & never did anything about stopping it. Every single one needs to be out of there, and that is the only thing that can help repair OU's image.

[adaniel]

Regardless, the subject of all of this is dumb college kids with an extremely archaic and silly chant that got out of hand.
Everyone is falling into the media's play on race and it's really just being blown out of proportion.

Silly chant?

Rich, entitled white fraternity kids gleefully singing about hanging black people from trees is not a "silly chant." I don't even think a Hollywood writer would be able to come up with a more cartoonish, exaggerated display of racism if they tried. And I can tell you the football and basketball recruits now reconsidering their commits to OU, the alumni that are thinking about withholding financial support, or the millions of people now harshly judging fraternity members, OU, and the entire state of Oklahoma do not think it is a silly chant.

Most people do not need any further media analysis to decide what they can clearly see on 20 seconds worth of video. You're opinion is ridiculous; stop blaming everyone else except the people who decided to do this.

[Jersey Boss]

You're trying to validate your opinion on the rebel flag (ol' Dixie flag, Confederate flag, etc.) because you haven't seen a few groups of people fly it? That is a far open ended example to use on almost anything. In fact, let me try:

Ford Escapes are for white people because I've never seen a black person driving one. Ergo, it must be a symbol of racism or white supremacy.

Either way, your point is moot:

This man walks around his town dressed in traditional Confederate garb carrying the rebel flag. He's been photographed and video taped for years (just before the 2:00 mark he's states "I'm Southern above all else"):



In all honesty the flag symbolizes many things, just as the U.S. flag does, or ANY flag for that matter.
The U.S. flag, or as you put, "the established lawful government" of the U.S.'s flag, may be a symbol of empire and conquest, or death from above in many Middle Eastern Countries.
It's also seen as a symbol of freedom and promise to other countries.

You clearly claim a very negative view on it, which is fine, that's your right and I won't argue that. But, you're trying to instigate something on a subject that would seem you aren't fully aware of or understanding of, and are using your emotions to try and badmouth it and the people, racist or not, along with it.

Regardless, the subject of all of this is dumb college kids with an extremely archaic and silly chant that got out of hand.
Everyone is falling into the media's play on race and it's really just being blown out of proportion. Racism, sadly, is everywhere and is practiced, not by everyone, but certainly by every race across the world, that's the ugly truth. Not to downplay this, but President Boren took swift action and justice is being served, rightfully so.
That's the core behind all of this, not some flag that these imbeciles hung up on their walls. Which, I'm also sure they had a U.S. flag and State of Oklahoma flag hanging somewhere in that building, too, what then?

You are all over the map here. The issue I addressed was the confederate flag. I addressed it as you are the one who brought it up. You brought it up a southern pride thing. I still say B.S.. We are not discussing autos, the US flag, the Oklahoma flag, or an old man on a You tube clip. When I see a like number of black southern families or individuals displaying same, then yeah I will agree with you. Right now all I see or observe is a disproportionate amount of the waving of the stars and bars being done by white people. Not all of the flag wavers are racist, but if you are a racist and want to fly a flag then this is the one that is chosen.

[PhiAlpha]

SAE's HQ is mandating that by March 9th, pledging be ended for good. Easier said than done, I think, but Sig Ep has done okay with Balanced Man... so why not?

Yes, pledgeship was banned last year. While I believe the intention was good and that change needed to happen, I think it will have a negative effect on SAE and already did at OU. While some chapters undoubtedly abused pledgeship as an opportunity to look down on younger students looking to be initiated into the fraternity, by eliminating the pledging process, SAE removed our ability to screen freshmen that we believed would be a long term risk to the fraternity. The pledgeship process was (and for fraternities that use it, still is) a great screening tool in which you get 6 months to learn as much as you can about the students that you signed through recruitment. It's very difficult to get enough time around these kids over the summer to get a good enough feel for who they really are, meeting them in their hometowns for a few nights is no substitute to seeing how they act on campus over time. After people are initiated, which they are immediately now, they are much more difficult to remove from the fraternity.

It has come to my attention that the bus in question was full of freshmen. Would being able to eliminate some of them through pledgeship have helped, who knows, but this crap didn't happen when we had that option so it may not be a coincidence. People like that are the kind of crap we watched for to prevent incidents like this from happening.

[Midtowner]

Yes, pledgeship was banned last year. While I believe the intention was good and that change needed to happen, I think it will have a negative effect on SAE and already did at OU. While some chapters undoubtedly abused pledgeship as an opportunity to look down on younger students looking to be initiated into the fraternity, by eliminating the pledging process, SAE removed our ability to screen freshmen that we believed would be a long term risk to the fraternity. The pledgeship process was (and for fraternities that use it, still is) a great screening tool in which you get 6 months to learn as much as you can about the students that you signed through recruitment. It's very difficult to get enough time around these kids over the summer to get a good enough feel for who they really are, meeting them in their hometowns for a few nights is no substitute to seeing how they act on campus over time. After people are initiated, which they are immediately now, they are much more difficult to remove from the fraternity.

It has come to my attention that the bus in question was full of freshmen. Would being able to eliminate some of them through pledgeship have helped, who knows, but this crap didn't happen when we had that option so it may not be a coincidence. People like that are the kind of crap we watched for to prevent incidents like this from happening.

I'm strongly against eliminating pledging. Who knows how many of these douchecanoes would have been there had your members had a semester to get to know them before inviting them to be part of the fraternity. I know that y'all will have no trouble finding renters (I may even know someone who needs to rent) for the time the chapter is shut down. We just reinstalled our OU chapter after having it go dormant for a few years. We've had a number of high quality pledge classes. If we can pull it off, SAE can for sure.

[BillyOcean]

Has D Bo kicked every SAE out of school or only those directly involved with the bus incident? I can't seem to find a definitive answer on this.

[jccouger]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...2a522afef3b5b2

[TU 'cane]

Silly rant?

Rich, entitled white fraternity kids gleefully singing about hanging black people from trees is not a "silly rant." I don't even think a Hollywood writer would be able to come up with a more cartoonish, exaggerated display of racism if they tried. And I can tell you the football and basketball recruits now reconsidering their commits to OU, the alumni that are thinking about withholding financial support, or the millions of people now harshly judging fraternity members, OU, and the entire state of Oklahoma do not think it is a silly rant.

Most people do not need any further media analysis to decide what they can clearly see on 20 seconds worth of video. You're opinion is ridiculous; stop blaming everyone else except the people who decided to do this.

Chant, not rant.
You are simply exacerbating the issue even further by trying to magnify the actions of these fools. Idiots need to be ignored, simple. What you are doing by going on YOUR rant, is your simply trying to single out one or two things and not looking at the broader picture, of which you alluded to:

Ignorant, rich, white kids.

Again, college kids, on the whole, IN MY OPINION, are dumb. Doesn't matter what race, what age, etc. They're immature and they're going to do dumb things. This scenario was dumb, unnecessary, and I certainly hope they will feel all appropriate repercussions, of which we've already seen the beginning of (and hopefully not end of) from OU's leadership.

You are yet another poster who is not reading the whole post, nitpicking one or two things you don't agree with, and then trying to paint the person you're responding to (me, in this case), as the epitome of what you are rallying against. You act as if I defended the perpetrators. Here's what I'm going to ask you to do: go back and read my ENTIRE post and see where I did nothing to defend the frat and only wished justice be demanded on them for what they did.

At the same time, and perhaps this is what you truly have an issue with, I didn't buy into the "sky is falling in Oklahoma, they're all racist!" bullsh*t that is being displayed by the media and countless other Internet quarterbacks across the country today.
It is a silly chant, and it's being condemned, as it should. And perhaps you're not seeing my meaning of silly. I don't mean it as "a more cartoonish, exaggerated display...", rather:

weak-minded or lacking good sense; stupid or foolish:
absurd; ridiculous; irrational:

Source: Silly | Define Silly at Dictionary.com

Perhaps that puts our conversation in better context?

You are all over the map here. The issue I addressed was the confederate flag. I addressed it as you are the one who brought it up. You brought it up a southern pride thing. I still say B.S.. We are not discussing autos, the US flag, the Oklahoma flag, or an old man on a You tube clip. When I see a like number of black southern families or individuals displaying same, then yeah I will agree with you. Right now all I see or observe is a disproportionate amount of the waving of the stars and bars being done by white people. Not all of the flag wavers are racist, but if you are a racist and want to fly a flag then this is the one that is chosen.

Wow. Nice way to deflect. I'm afraid there's no further conversation to be had here. I feel my post adequately responded to your claims and statements against mine (with appropriate examples: "autos, the US flag, the Oklahoma flag, or an old man on a You tube clip." - you said you've never seen "AAs" wave it. I JUST SHOWED YOU ONE), and you're just reeling back now. Have a good day Jersey.

[jccouger]

Has D Bo kicked every SAE out of school or only those directly involved with the bus incident? I can't seem to find a definitive answer on this.

I don't think any have been kicked out of school yet, just off campus (out of the frat house).

[Pete]

Has D Bo kicked every SAE out of school or only those directly involved with the bus incident? I can't seem to find a definitive answer on this.

Nobody has been expelled yet.

I'm sure they can only take action against those they can place on the bus; or perhaps just the couple of guys clearly seen singing in the video.