Fracking and earthquakes

[Just the facts]

What I found surprising in the article was the admission from just about everyone (except the Sandridge consultant) who directly linked the earthquakes with the wastewater injection. The industry has been in total denial on that for years. What I found most appalling though is just how much toxic waste has been pumped into the ground under Oklahoma.

The state has about 3,200 active injection wells that disposed of a combined 1.1 billion barrels of wastewater in 2013

If 60 Minutes ran a story just on that activity alone the entire state would be as popular to live in as Picher is.

[ylouder]

You could but it still wouldn’t change some people's minds, much like Picher Oklahoma.

I've been attacked on this board over the last two years for reposting data and saying there was a link in certain instances between waste water injection and the earthquakes. I can't count the times I've been told that there is no negative consequences, , that I didn’t know what I was talking about, or that I hate industry - all complete hyperbole that lacked actual thought and substance.

Read any news story on earthquakes or water contamination and listen to them fall over themselves in defense of their overseers; as if to gain some sort of approval in their eyes.

[BillyOcean]

What I found surprising in the article was the admission from just about everyone (except the Sandridge consultant) who directly linked the earthquakes with the wastewater injection. The industry has been in total denial on that for years. What I found most appalling though is just how much toxic waste has been pumped into the ground under Oklahoma. If 60 Minutes ran a story just on that activity alone the entire state would be as popular to live in as Picher is.

You really need to quit commenting on things that you have no idea about. Toxic Waste? You realize the salt water that they are pumping back into the ground came from that same ground? Obviously you did not. They are separating the salt water from a producing formation and pumping it back into the ground in a different formation that will "absorb" the water. In this instance, deeper than it originally sat.

Please use better discretion when posting from now on. It's people like you that perpetuate myths/lies, no matter the subject.

[Just the facts]

You really need to quit commenting on things that you have no idea about. Toxic Waste? You realize the salt water that they are pumping back into the ground came from that same ground? Obviously you did not. They are separating the salt water from a producing formation and pumping it back into the ground in a different formation that will "absorb" the water. In this instance, deeper than it originally sat.

Please use better discretion when posting from now on. It's people like you that perpetuate myths/lies, no matter the subject.

Directly from the article:

Injection wells are used to dispose of wastewater, laden with salt and toxic chemicals, produced from oil and gas wells.

If fracking wastewater only contains salt why is the industry protected from having to disclose what is in it?

http://www.midwestenergynews.com/201...rries-critics/

I await your response.

On second thought - don't even bother responding as this is the wrong thread for this topic. I'll just stand by what was in the article and leave it at that.

[TheTravellers]

On Monday Sandridge was asked to shutdown one of their salt water injection wells near Cherokee. That's a big deal since the SWD areas and the infrastructure surrounding those are the key points amongst all of the completion wells that have already been drilled. Will increase the cost to ship that water somewhere else down the line. The biggest reason SD does well in the mississipian area is because of their salt water infrastructure. Wonder if this will be a continuing trend.

State orders injection well shut down after northwestern Oklahoma earthquake | News OK

From the Tulsa World article that the newsok article links to:

"Dozens of scientific studies since the 1970s, including several studies of Oklahoma earthquakes, have linked injection wells and earthquakes. Scientists at the U.S. Geological Survey have also said they believe that the state’s increased seismicity is due to injection wells."

Since the 1970s??? Weren't we told that there was absolutely no evidence that injection wells caused earthquakes, many many many times by many many many people just a year or so ago?

[Just the facts]

Since the 1970s??? Weren't we told that there was absolutely no evidence that injection wells caused earthquakes, many many many times by many many many people just a year or so ago?

Dude - they are still saying that today. My guess is a fair amount of OKCTalk posters who are employed in this industry don't want to be an easy target for workforce reduction measures so they parrot the company line.

Here is an excerpt from the article:

A consultant for SandRidge, J.P. Dick, testified during the hearing that the company planned to drill numerous horizontal wells in the region, known as the Mississippian.
...
Dick told the commission he had examined well logs for the area and “determined that there is no faulting in the immediate area.” He said “the recent seismic activity in this area appears to be naturally occurring” and the injection well’s operation would not trigger earthquakes in the area.

So I guess he feels the shutdown order was fraudulent.

[PhiAlpha]

Directly from the article:



If fracking wastewater only contains salt why is the industry protected from having to disclose what is in it?

Ohio fracking waste issues go beyond chemical disclosure | Midwest Energy News

I await your response.

On second thought - don't even bother responding as this is the wrong thread for this topic. I'll just stand by what was in the article and leave it at that.

Well I guess it's a good thing that they're pulling all of that nasty toxic oil and gas out of the ground so that it won't be down there to pollute all the previously depleted formations that they are dumping all that toxic frac fluid and salt water into...

[PhiAlpha]

I guess I don't understand that logic. Are you saying pulling oil and gas trapped in rock from one location and pumping toxic chemical infused water into rock at another location makes an 'even-Steven' situation?

I'm saying that the hydrocarbons (that are naturally infused with saltwater)being pulled out of the ground and separated from produced water are about a million times more toxic than the salt water and frac fluid that are being disposed of. I'm also saying that that salt water and frac fluid is being disposed of in formations previously occupied by oil and gas that were depleted years ago. Injection/disposal wells are also often former producing wells that have either been recompleted to a depleted zone or inject into the original formation they produced from. So if you have a problem with injecting toxic chemicals (again, about 99% salt water) into the ground that were the byproduct of oil and gas production, you are either ignorant to how the process works or are towing the environmentalist line and have an issue with oil and gas production in general.

Also, as far as disclosing what is in frac fluid, operators are not required by the federal government to disclose chemicals in frac fluid because the vast majority of oil and gas regulation is left to state governments. I can't speak for other states, but operators in oklahoma ARE required to disclose the contents of their frac fluid on a well by well basis at fracfocus.com or to the corporation commission to be posted on fracfocus.com.

http://m.newsok.com/new-disclosure-r...rticle/3919475

[PhiAlpha]

W

Dude - they are still saying that today. My guess is a fair amount of OKCTalk posters who are employed in this industry don't want to be an easy target for workforce reduction measures so they parrot the company line.
.

And this smug bullsh** comment sums up my frustration (and I'm sure I'm not alone) with posting about oil and gas related issues here. If we work for the oil and gas industry, I guess we can't have opinions based on the facts we've learned from what we do on a day to day basis. If we post comments based on the knowledge we've accumulated through decades of experience that differ from your opinion or the article written by a reporter who studied oil and gas for a week, it's always "parroting the company line" or "protecting our jobs" (you realize we all post anonymously, right?). Sure we're all biased toward the energy industry but I would make the argument that many of the posters that are not in the industry are just as biased against it.

If you disagree with us or read an article somewhere that differs from the opinions or facts we present, good for you, post it for discussion, but stop claiming that we only post as a bunch of mindless robots working tirelessly for some industry PR firm.

[rte66man]

From the Tulsa World article that the newsok article links to:

"Dozens of scientific studies since the 1970s, including several studies of Oklahoma earthquakes, have linked injection wells and earthquakes. Scientists at the U.S. Geological Survey have also said they believe that the state’s increased seismicity is due to injection wells."

Since the 1970s??? Weren't we told that there was absolutely no evidence that injection wells caused earthquakes, many many many times by many many many people just a year or so ago?

Injection wells have been around since before the 70's, yet it's only in the last few years that they cause earthquakes. SO why didn't it happen before now? None of the anti-energy crowd can answer that.

[zookeeper]

Reading the last few pages of this thread is like living in an alternate universe. Where energy companies (and their lackeys) live in one universe and everybody else lives in another. Living in Oklahoma City is like living in an insular world of big energy spin, contempt for anybody who dares to question, and the broad swath of media and culture here is bought and paid for (literally). Kerry, I rarely post anymore because it's like one big long trip to Oz. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Keep posting and taking the fight to these people. They have no shame. They have only a sense of entitlement in this city that makes the city of the Kerr days mild in comparison.

[PhiAlpha]

Reading the last few pages of this thread is like living in an alternate universe. Where energy companies (and their lackeys) live in one universe and everybody else lives in another. Living in Oklahoma City is like living in an insular world of big energy spin, contempt for anybody who dares to question, and the broad swath of media and culture here is bought and paid for (literally). Kerry, I rarely post anymore because it's like one big long trip to Oz. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Keep posting and taking the fight to these people. They have no shame. They have only a sense of entitlement in this city that makes the city of the Kerr days mild in comparison.

You are one of the posters I was referring to above... And quit making long diatribes claiming people were attacking you 6 months ago and then avoid responding when we provide examples of how no one was really even rude to you, they just disagreed. If you're going to claim that you plan to stop participating, stop. Sniping and running away makes you look like a child.

Maybe we should just forget everything we've learned throughout our time working in and studying to work in the oil and gas industry and agree with everything you or anyone against the industry says. What's a decade or three of real world experience when you can read 10 articles online and become an Internet energy expert?

[zookeeper]

Phi - You are acting like the child by changing the subject. You don't know what went on back when I wrote that post, there's more to OKCTalk than just these public forums. I WAS sick of it. I DID need a break. I STILL don't post like I used to.

By the way, do you monitor this board 24/7 in order to come to the rescue of Oklahoma City's Big Energy cartel? Your last post was an example of what's so pathetic about the pro-industry do-know-wrong posters. Your words: "You are one of the posters I was referring to above..." If you just demonize us as stupid and full of BS, you think you'll win ANY argument. Please realize that there are some of us that take the words of local homers with a grain of salt. Like I said above, it's like an alternate universe. Beam me up Scotty!

[PhiAlpha]

Phi - You are acting like the child by changing the subject. You don't know what went on back when I wrote that post, there's more to OKCTalk than just these public forums. I WAS sick of it. I DID need a break. I STILL don't post like I used to.

By the way, do you monitor this board 24/7 in order to come to the rescue of Oklahoma City's Big Energy cartel? Your last post was an example of what's so pathetic about the pro-industry do-know-wrong posters. Your words: "You are one of the posters I was referring to above..." If you just demonize us as stupid and full of BS, you think you'll win ANY argument. Please realize that there are some of us that take the words of local homers with a grain of salt. Like I said above, it's like an alternate universe. Beam me up Scotty!

As I said above in response to Kerry's comment claiming anyone that supports or works in the industry is a mindless shill for their employers, you ARE one of the posters I was referring to and your last post proves it. You and Kerry come off as anti-industry "do no wrong" posters. And you know as well as I do that I've never claimed that the industry does no wrong...I also never said you or anyone else was stupid...I said that claiming our comments derived from real life experiences are useless because we work in the industry is a weak argument.

Like I said above, I guess we should all just forget our years of experience and agree with you, because according to you, none of the facts we present are worth anything, right?

[PhiAlpha]

Phi - You are acting like the child by changing the subject. You don't know what went on back when I wrote that post, there's more to OKCTalk than just these public forums. I WAS sick of it. I DID need a break. I STILL don't post like I used to.

By the way, do you monitor this board 24/7 in order to come to the rescue of Oklahoma City's Big Energy cartel? Your last post was an example of what's so pathetic about the pro-industry do-know-wrong posters. Your words: "You are one of the posters I was referring to above..." If you just demonize us as stupid and full of BS, you think you'll win ANY argument. Please realize that there are some of us that take the words of local homers with a grain of salt. Like I said above, it's like an alternate universe. Beam me up Scotty!

Also, I appologize for changing the subject, but you never responded when we called you out in the oil prices thread. I figured I might as well throw that in here since there is no telling when you will appear again to drop knowledge on all of us industry rednecks who know not what we do...

[zookeeper]

As I said above in response to Kerry's comment claiming anyone that supports or works in the industry is a mindless shill for their employers, you ARE one of the posters I was referring to and your last post proves it. You and Kerry come off as anti-industry "do no wrong" posters. And you know as well as I do that I've never claimed that the industry does no wrong...I also never said you or anyone else was stupid...I said that claiming our comments derived from real life experiences are useless because we work in the industry is a weak argument.

Like I said above, I guess we should all just forget our years of experience and agree with you, because according to you, none of the facts we present are worth anything, right?

You can't deny that it comes across as PR shilling for the industry. I just don't think the way to progress is to defend the industry at all costs. At some point, you come across as selling out your values and principles that you hopefully have for humanity - and not just the oil and gas industry. They are often at odds. If there's anything Kerry and I are saying, it is that. Makes me think of the song....

Lord it's the same old tune, fiddle and guitar
Where do we take it from here?
Rhinestone suits and new shiny cars
It's been the same way for years
We need to change
Somebody told me when I came to Nashville
Son you finally got it made
Old Hank made it here, we're all sure that you will
But I don't think Hank done it this way, no
I don't think Hank done it this way, okay

Ten years on the road, making one night stand
Speeding my young life away
Tell me one more time just so I'll understand
Are you sure Hank done it this way?
Did old Hank really do it this way?

But I don't think Hank done 'em this way, no
I don't think Hank done 'em this way, take it home.

[PhiAlpha]

You can't deny that it comes across as PR shilling for the industry. I just don't think the way to progress is to defend the industry at all costs. At some point, you come across as selling out your values and principles that you hopefully have for humanity - and not just the oil and gas industry. They are often at odds. If there's anything Kerry and I are saying, it is that. Makes me think of the song....

Lord it's the same old tune, fiddle and guitar
Where do we take it from here?
Rhinestone suits and new shiny cars
It's been the same way for years
We need to change
Somebody told me when I came to Nashville
Son you finally got it made
Old Hank made it here, we're all sure that you will
But I don't think Hank done it this way, no
I don't think Hank done it this way, okay

Ten years on the road, making one night stand
Speeding my young life away
Tell me one more time just so I'll understand
Are you sure Hank done it this way?
Did old Hank really do it this way?

But I don't think Hank done 'em this way, no
I don't think Hank done 'em this way, take it home.

Dude, going off the deep end a bit with those lyrics...

So let me get this straight again, anyone supporting the industry comes off as a shill for the industry and is selling their soul by defending it when many people here/elsewhere bash it for reasons that we feel/know are factually flawed?

[zookeeper]

Dude, going off the deep end a bit with those lyrics...

So let me get this straight again, anyone supporting the industry comes off as a shill for the industry and is selling their soul by defending it when many people here/elsewhere bash it for reasons that we feel/know are factually flawed?

This is all I will say for today.

It's not "going off the deep end," (and you wonder why I felt the way I did a few moths ago)? I think there is a lot in that song that maybe you simply don't want to see.

I think more than anything, it's almost like a 24/7 "policing" of energy threads, making sure the industry is defended within hours, or with you so often, within minutes.

It's Sunday. I'm going to take it easy. Have a good rest of the weekend.

[PhiAlpha]

This is all I will say for today.

It's not "going off the deep end," (and you wonder why I felt the way I did a few moths ago)? I think there is a lot in that song that maybe you simply don't want to see.

I think more than anything, it's almost like a 24/7 "policing" of energy threads, making sure the industry is defended within hours, or with you so often, within minutes.

It's Sunday. I'm going to take it easy. Have a good rest of the weekend.

No I just think it's hokey to use song lyrics in an arguement...

i read the energy threads and comment in them all the time because it's something I understand enough to provide knowledgable input. If you read them more, you would see that it's not just me disagreeing with people, but I assure you I don't sit at my desk all day hitting refresh and waiting for someone to make any negative comment about the industry.i generally wait until someone says something ignorant enough that I feel a need to speak up.

However since I'm a member of the energy police, I doubt any answer or comment I make will be sufficient. we'll have to agree to disagree, have a good Sunday as well.

[Just the facts]

Let's get back to the very specific subject that TheTravellers and I were talking about, and that was the near constant claim from the OKCTalk Oil Company Knowledge Base that has claimed for years - and even right up to 5 posts ago, that wastewater injection from fracking was NOT causing earthquakes - and then we find out in the Tulsa World story that behind the scenes everyone from Sandridge executives, to the OIPA, to state regulators, to state and federal geologist ALL new they were connected. In fact, the only paid person still maintaining they aren't connect was the Sandridge consultant who was paid to say it (I guess so the industry-deniers still had a bucket to carry the wastewater in).

Can we all agree now that wastewater injection from fracking is connected to earthquakes, or are people still wanting to deny it?

[BDP]

Injection wells have been around since before the 70's, yet it's only in the last few years that they cause earthquakes. SO why didn't it happen before now? None of the anti-energy crowd can answer that.

I'm not saying either way what is causing them, but this is a pretty specious logic to address a geological question. I mean we see things like sink holes form every day that are caused by mining activities that ceased decades before. And IF injection wells are triggering quakes, it probably has more to do with location and volume. It's not like there would be some sort of direct ratio of well activity to earthquakes. IF injection wells can cause earthquakes, I bet there are locations and volumes at which they could operate that would greatly mitigate the possibility for the side affect of earthquakes or other geological impacts.

I mean, really, I think the most troubling thing is the hubris with which the debate is approached. The idea that we can significantly alter the geological make up of an area and expect zero impact on that area's geology is just as crazy as taking the position that certain practices will always affect the geology in the same way, either negatively or neutrally. There is a huge void in the understanding of what exactly the long terms effects are and what constitutes responsible disposal practices and what ones pose a risk to the community. As each side continues the debate from an absolute position, it seems our actual understanding of what is happening gets worse.

[bradh]

BDP that last sentence is great, not just in this argument but any really.

[Just the facts]

As each side continues the debate from an absolute position, it seems our actual understanding of what is happening gets worse.

As a right-winger on the anti-fracking side all I can say is that I, and the people I know, am not saying that every injection well causes an earthquake regardless of volume. All I am claiming is that the vast majority of Oklahoma earthquakes are being caused by injection wells. There is a difference. What I take exception with are the industry defenders who claim there is no connection at all - meaning no earthquake was ever the result of wastewater injection.

Of course, we now know that industry executives, geologist, and regulators all know that earthquakes are being caused by injection wells so this whole debate is now probably moot. The only real discussion left on the subject is are the earthquake risks worth the reward and what happens if insurance companies start denying claims by calling them industrial accidents (vs. an act of God). Will Sandridge, and other oil companies, be able to cover the liability costs if that happens?

[Rover]

A What I take exception with are the industry defenders who claim there is no connection at all - meaning no earthquake was ever the result of wastewater injection.

Sort of like right wingers saying that there is no global warming and people have nothing to do with it?

[C_M_25]

On the earthquake discussion: correlation doesn't always equal causation. Think about this. Our state has a complex geologic and tectonic history. Our state underwent complex tectonic compression in Pennsylvanian times which created the ouachita/Arbuckle mountains were created and thought to have been as tall as the rockie mountains are today. Around the same time, you had the creation of the Wichita mountains, but these were created by slightly different tectonic processes. Now, dividing these two features, you have the creation of the nemaha ridge which runs north-south through the state along the I-35 corridor. This is a complex geologic structure that has been present since some of the oldest rocks in the state were deposited. I'm telling you all of this because you need to know that between the basins here, we have complex geologic structures.

Now, our faults are actually accumulating stresses much like the San Andreas fault in California albeit at a much slower rate. The Wichita mountains are not isostatically balanced meaning that the core of those mountains is composed of rock much denser than the surrounding material, so it is actually trying to sink into the crust causing it to flex and impart stress on surrounding faults (research meers fault and you will find our state had a magnitude 7 10000 years ago). You have the Madrid fault that moved not too long ago, and you have the ongoing movement of the crustal plates. All of these things have caused our faults to become stressed over time.

Now, injection near a fault that is stressed and aligned at the appropriate orientation relative to regional stress directions can cause the fault to slip. The fluids injected can increase pore pressure and reduce the friction coefficients of the fault surface resulting in slip. However, you need a very specific set of conditions to cause this to happen. Not every fault will slip. At the end of the day disposal wells can cause earthquakes, but it will typically be localized around the wellbore. Our seismicity is fairlh widespread, so there are like multiple reasons why we are seeing eqs here. We probably have some natural slip occurring as these faults release the stresses built up over millions of years, and we also have some small perturbations of stresses around some faults related to disposal wells. Is the former related to the latter ? Because of our complex geology, that is a difficult, if not impossible, question to answer.