Streetcar

[HOT ROD]

its different strokes for different folks. But the key is OKC needs to offer living standard for everyone; including those who want the urban/downtown experience. For far too long OKC focused ONLY on the Suburban and Rural experience (as Family Focused) and NOT on the urban experience - relegating the inner city to the ghetto and "crime".

Again, a healthy city cators to all (or at least most) demographics and it's nice that OKC is getting this message and both crowds can be happy.

[OKCinsomniac]

Agreed.

[Spartan]

He has said that he believes that he believe that the City should not provide Public Transportation of any type and that the free market should resolve public transportation needs.

This is a view that I would say a third of people in OKC may potentially believe. They point to privately-operated transit before WWII as an example.

It is baffling how in a city that was far more affected by the urban renewal era than most others (mainly for lack of earlier history to counteract the urban renewal era), we are still oblivious to what it did to us, how we did that, and what we do about it moving forward. We are still practicing 1970s-style urban renewal redevelopment and subject to 1970s-era views on city building.

And it has hurt us more than most other cities.

[Urban Pioneer]

A New Way to Travel in Oklahoma City | KOSU

[TheTravellers]

A New Way to Travel in Oklahoma City | KOSU

It's a shame their blog hasn't been updated since mid-October, was interesting reading.

[CarlessInOKC]

Funny you should say that... Carless in OKC: What Does Carlessness Really Look Like in OKC?

Edit: I apologize if this post is inappropriate for this thread - got a little bit excited!

[Zuplar]

I was watching Top Gear last night, I think it was the episode from a week or so back where they were in St Petersburg. They did another race with different modes of transportation, car, hovercraft, bike, and public transportation. One thing I noticed is they had a trolley system (looked similar to this streetcar). Near the beginning Richard (who was riding the bike), goes to change lanes and had a pretty decent crash, all caused by the trolley tracks. He had been griping about them earlier how they make biking so much more difficult. As well as James had been complaining about the trolley causing congestion because cars also drive in the trolley lane. This got me thinking about this thread, and I wondered for comparison, how much will our trolley affect bikers. Will they have a separate lane? Will cars also be able to drive just like another lane? Just thought it was interesting.

FWIW, spoiler to those that will watch, but public transit came in dead last this time. Had Richard not crashed he most likely would have came in first.

[LakeEffect]

I was watching Top Gear last night, I think it was the episode from a week or so back where they were in St Petersburg. They did another race with different modes of transportation, car, hovercraft, bike, and public transportation. One thing I noticed is they had a trolley system (looked similar to this streetcar). Near the beginning Richard (who was riding the bike), goes to change lanes and had a pretty decent crash, all caused by the trolley tracks. He had been griping about them earlier how they make biking so much more difficult. As well as James had been complaining about the trolley causing congestion because cars also drive in the trolley lane. This got me thinking about this thread, and I wondered for comparison, how much will our trolley affect bikers. Will they have a separate lane? Will cars also be able to drive just like another lane? Just thought it was interesting.

FWIW, spoiler to those that will watch, but public transit came in dead last this time. Had Richard not crashed he most likely would have came in first.

I love Top Gear for the entertainment value, but they often hedge against anything other than auto. I think High Speed Rail has won, or nearly won, a couple times in their races.

That out of the way, if streetcar (trolley, if you must - I won't) works so well in Amsterdam with its numerous bikes, it won't be a big issue here. The key is make sure that the majority of cross-rail traffic occurs when the cyclist is 90 degrees to the track. Then it's just a slight bump...

[Zuplar]

I love Top Gear for the entertainment value, but they often hedge against anything other than auto. I think High Speed Rail has won, or nearly won, a couple times in their races.

That out of the way, if streetcar (trolley, if you must - I won't) works so well in Amsterdam with its numerous bikes, it won't be a big issue here. The key is make sure that the majority of cross-rail traffic occurs when the cyclist is 90 degrees to the track. Then it's just a slight bump...

Yeah I imagine approaching it mostly straight on is a non-issue. What they were referencing was changing lanes essentially, back and forth while being parallel to it. I can see that has definitely being challenging.

[Urban Pioneer]

Here is the answer to those questions about bike safety. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIRQaNdeS1s

[Zuplar]

Here is the answer to those questions about bike safety. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIRQaNdeS1s

Wow, that looks like a nightmare. Basically it said approach as straight on as possible, or find a different route. If OKC ever implements those bike boxes I can see drivers around here having no idea what they are. You basically would have to reprogram a population to get it used properly. And then the whole thing where the rails swerve in and out of different lanes, so cars follow the rails instead of the lane to avoid driving over the rails, will absolutely happen. That's something I hadn't really thought of. I was starting to come around to thinking maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but everything they were addressing in that video basically reaffirms what I was thinking.

[AP]

I really think when you see it in action or are around it, it will only be a problem if you want it to be a problem.

[Zuplar]

I really think when you see it in action or are around it, it will only be a problem if you want it to be a problem.

I sure hope so.

[AP]

I sure hope so.

I didn't mean for that to come off as a dig at you, btw. I just think the problems that people complain about are greatly exaggerated because they really want to have some about the streetcar to complain about, if that makes sense.

[Zuplar]

I didn't mean for that to come off as a dig at you, btw. I just think the problems that people complain about are greatly exaggerated because they really want to have some about the streetcar to complain about, if that makes sense.

I didn't take it as a dig, over the years I've grown a thick skin on what people may or may not imply when writing on the internet.

I think in general it's good to bring up opposing views, as long as it doesn't get nasty. I know when I get excited about a project sometimes I overlook things that can be a problem. And while I'm not big on the whole trolley thing, I like to present the opposing view because I feel like I've learned a lot from what people have posted in response.

[betts]

If we were building the first streetcar, perhaps I'd be a bit more concerned. But, the incredibly bike friendly cities of Seattle and Portland have reasonably big streetcar systems and I've heard very little complaining about the streetcar and bike interaction there. My husband was skeptical of the streetcar initially, and mass transit in general, but he's skiied in Utah the past several winters and comes home talking up the SLC system. If we're lucky, the streetcar and any other mass transit we fund may reduce driving in the CBD. That would suit me just fine. I'm tired of getting yelled at by drivers for crossing the street on a green light when they want to turn right on red. It's actually amazing how little I drive my car these days. I've had my car for almost 3 years and have 20,000 miles on it, most of which I generated driving to Nebraska to see my mother and to Dallas to visit a friend. Walking is such a pleasurable thing to do on a nice day, and Oklahoma actually has a fair number of really nice days.

[ljbab728]

If it does I'm drawing a blank. There are hotels, eateries, etc but those can be found anywhere. I'm just saying in my personal experience. I don't go downtown for anything other than bass pro, the thunder and the redhawks/Dodgers. Granted when I'm down there for those I usually do other things. So if it came down to being an utter pain to get down there, I personally wouldn't miss much. And fwiw most everyone I hang out with feels the same and we all technically live in OKC.

Different strokes for different folks.

Here is another example of what I was saying in my last response to you. I was downtown Saturday night for a play at the City Space Theater in the basement of the Civic Center. There was also a play that night in the Freede Theater in the same building, a symphony concert in the main hall, and some kind of event with a band playing in the Hall of Mirrors. The Reduxion Theater also had a play going on at their theater in Automobile Alley. Sporting events are only part of the equation in why people are drawn to downtown.

[Zuplar]

Here is another example of what I was saying in my last response to you. I was downtown Saturday night for a play at the City Space Theater in the basement of the Civic Center. There was also a play that night in the Freede Theater in the same building, a symphony concert in the main hall, and some kind of event with a band playing in the Hall of Mirrors. The Reduxion Theater also had a play going on at their theater in Automobile Alley. Sporting events are only part of the equation in why people are drawn to downtown.

It seems quite apparent we have different tastes as well as the group we hang out with. Looking back the past few years the only reasons I have gone downtown are Thunder games (season ticket holder), Redhawks games, Bass Pro shop, bachelor party, and went to a few restaurants that arent anywhere else. Granted the restaurants were steak places we simply ate at for something different, if it really wasn't for sports I wouldn't go do there, and I know most of my friends go down there even less because they aren't season ticket holders. I tend to hang out with like minded people and most of us (as in my group of friends) aren't big on crowds. So in my circle of life I still contend downtown doesn't really offer anything exclusive besides sports that we'd (friends again) miss out on.

[ljbab728]

It seems quite apparent we have different tastes as well as the group we hang out with. Looking back the past few years the only reasons I have gone downtown are Thunder games (season ticket holder), Redhawks games, Bass Pro shop, bachelor party, and went to a few restaurants that arent anywhere else. Granted the restaurants were steak places we simply ate at for something different, if it really wasn't for sports I wouldn't go do there, and I know most of my friends go down there even less because they aren't season ticket holders. I tend to hang out with like minded people and most of us (as in my group of friends) aren't big on crowds. So in my circle of life I still contend downtown doesn't really offer anything exclusive besides sports that we'd (friends again) miss out on.

I understand that. I just wanted you to understand that there are a large number of people who have a very different perspective. Obviously that doesn't include you and your sports minded friends. Probably the majority of the people attending arts oriented events wouldn't be interested in your sports activities. (I enjoy both) You may speak for you and your circle of friends but that means little in the overall context of what downtown offers for it's citizens.

[betts]

Bricktown is absolutely packed on nice days and even, surprisingly, on most weekend days that aren't so nice.While Midtown doesn't get the foot traffic that Bricktown does, you'd better not assume you can just walk into a restaurant there on weekends. Went by Bleu Garten yesterday and it was jammed. Saturday night we drove (husband has orthopedic injury so walking was out) to see some of the Oscar nominated shorts at the Art Museum and had to park so far away we almost might have walked. The theatre we were in had a lot of people. Friends of mine who a few years ago would never have gone downtown to dine or hang out are choosing it over other entertainment options. Myself, I rarely leave the downtown area except to hang out with friends at Starbucks in Nichols Hillsor shop at Classen Curve occasionally or . I've got everything I need within a mile or two. And there are more people like me all the time. I think the streetcar is going to be a hit.

[betts]

Bricktown is absolutely packed on nice days and even, surprisingly, on most nice days. While Midtown doesn't get the foot traffic that Bricktown does, you'd better not assume you can just walk into a restaurant there on weekends. Went by Bleu Garten yesterday and it was jammed. Saturday night we drove (husband has orthopedic injury so walking was out) to see some of the Oscar nominated shorts at the Art Museum and had to park so far away we almost might have walked. The theatre we were in had a lot of people. Friends of mine who a few years ago would never have gone downtown to dine or hang out are choosing it over other entertainment options. Myself, I rarely leave the downtown area except to hang out with friends at Starbucks in Nichols Hills or shop at Classen Curve occasionally. I've got everything I need within a mile or two. And there are more people like me all the time. I think the streetcar is going to be a hit.

[Zuplar]

I understand that. I just wanted you to understand that there are a large number of people who have a very different perspective. Obviously that doesn't include you and your sports minded friends. Probably the majority of the people attending arts oriented events wouldn't be interested in your sports activities. (I enjoy both) You may speak for you and your circle of friends but that means little in the overall context of what downtown offers for it's citizens.

I don't doubt there are people interested in that kind of stuff, I'd say interest in a lot of that stuff has increased over the years. If there wasn't a market for it, they wouldn't continue to hold events.

[Just the facts]

My concern with OKC and the Streetcar isn't the Streetcar. It's OKC's ability to allow the streetcar to be successful. The difference in Portland and Seattle is that these cities have been building good urbanism for a while now. Streetcars in poorly designed cities don't do nearly as well. I was actually amazed at how little the streetcar in Long Beach was used. But it made sense. That city is just not that walkable when you compare them to cities that have more successfully pulled off urban rail projects.

Point being, now that we've got a streetcar coming, transit advocates need to fully transition into form-based advocates and make sure that what goes in along the streetcar helps the streetcar be successful. I know that's pretty well known already by everyone here but is probably going to be the crux of the success or lack thereof.

The same thing happened in Tampa where the streetcar apparently was targeting convention goers who want to go to Ybor City for entertainment. There just aren't enough of them wanting to do that and a large portion of track frontage isn't buildable land so residential development along the system isn't even possible.

As for your main point, that is why I get so disappointed in how the CBD is developing since it is the core focus of OKC's system. I long for the day when the acronym CBD actually disappears from the national lexicon and is replaced simply by downtown.

[Plutonic Panda]

The same thing happened in Tampa where the streetcar apparently was targeting convention goers who want to go to Ybor City for entertainment. There just aren't enough of them wanting to do that and a large portion of track frontage isn't buildable land so residential development along the system isn't even possible.

As for your main point, that is why I get so disappointed in how the CBD is developing since it is the core focus of OKC's system. I long for the day when the acronym CBD actually disappears from the national lexicon and is replaced simply by downtown.

I thought good urbanism would follow when the streetcar was built?

[betts]

Or maybe they work together? Why does our route go through Midtown, Auto Alley, make at stop near the Santa Fe station, go through Bricktown over to the Steelyard and the Hill, head down Reno to the park and Convention Center, go past the Art Museum and Civic Center and go through the CBD on Robinson? It goes past the Memorial and the Law School, but still traverses past areas that have yet to be developed or improved. It's not all about transit oriented development. It's also about serving people who live, work and recreate in our downtown and close in areas. It's hard for me to imagine a more logical route of an affordable length that serves such a variety of interests, to be honest with you.