Streetcar

[Zuplar]

What you see as "flexibility," is seen as developers as a temporary asset. It lacks physical impact, which OKC needs.

Impact is a more difficult thing to describe, but it requires vision. The streetcar isn't about one thing, but it's bridging our assets in a visible way that is as much about community and economic development as it is transit. It's the highest form of mass transit, and it elevates the service level in the entire system if planned right.

The key with OKC's transit future is to keep doing as much as we can at every moment. Right now we are doing that, because we are upgrading bus service, and also have this capital funding for a building project. Capital funding is not operations funding. The next step is to figure out rail operations funding and then to expand the rail into neighborhoods with other bus connections. Then just consolidate the service map into a core-area grid, with a few key arteries on the edge like NW Expwy and I-240 running at 15-20 minute intervals.

All of a sudden, you have a decently functioning transit network. Then add the commuter rail that ACOG is working on, and a MAPS 4 TRANSIT initiative. All of a sudden, OKC is in business as a great transit town. That's a vision that is attainable and currently underway. We should support it. The entire vision is vitally important, not just any one piece of it at the expense of another.

I just see it all as a big hassle for those of us that go downtown that drive, which is most everyone in Oklahoma. What that makes me envision is less parking, or the need to drive to a station, to get on some sort of public transportation to get to downtown because there is little to no parking downtown. That would keep me from going downtown. I'm not going to drive my car to a bus stop/street car stop, pay money for parking, then pay to get on the transit, just to get downtown. I'm going to go elsewhere. At this point there isn't much downtown that isn't elsewhere, accept for the Thunder and OKC Dodgers. Where I live now I'm never going to be able to be without a car, and I'm fine with that. I feel like too much focus on public transit and not a balanced approach, is just going to push many people away.

[BrettM2]

I just see it all as a big hassle for those of us that go downtown that drive, which is most everyone in Oklahoma. What that makes me envision is less parking, or the need to drive to a station, to get on some sort of public transportation to get to downtown because there is little to no parking downtown. That would keep me from going downtown. I'm not going to drive my car to a bus stop/street car stop, pay money for parking, then pay to get on the transit, just to get downtown. I'm going to go elsewhere. At this point there isn't much downtown that isn't elsewhere, accept for the Thunder and OKC Dodgers. Where I live now I'm never going to be able to be without a car, and I'm fine with that. I feel like too much focus on public transit and not a balanced approach, is just going to push many people away.

We are getting at least three new parking garages, with Pete saying one more is a possibility just west of the Clayco development and one potentially south in the Core to Shore area. I think parking will be ok with that influx of spaces. By adding the streetcar, they are actually offering more of a balanced approach. I'm looking forward to driving in, parking, taking the streetcar to Midtown, back down for a Thunder game, and who knows after. It'll make the entire area much more accessible.

[Zuplar]

We are getting at least three new parking garages, with Pete saying one more is a possibility just west of the Clayco development and one potentially south in the Core to Shore area. I think parking will be ok with that influx of spaces. By adding the streetcar, they are actually offering more of a balanced approach. I'm looking forward to driving in, parking, taking the streetcar to Midtown, back down for a Thunder game, and who knows after. It'll make the entire area much more accessible.

I sure hope so. My big thing is I don't want people to forget what we are. It's great to have options, but to shove a one-sided approach down our throats is another. What you describe isn't bad. What I have in my mind would be something like me driving to a parking lot at 240 and May and then it taking another 25 minutes to get downtown with all the stops along the way. That's ridiculous, but I couldn't tell you how many times that's what it's felt like in other major cities that have more public transportation options.

[Anonymous.]

You are talking about a 'park and ride' lightrail. This is a streetcar, totally different ballgame.

Also claiming that downtown has nothing to offer that anywhere else does is a poor attempt at taking a shot @ downtown. Not even worth arguing.

[Zuplar]

You are talking about a 'park and ride' lightrail. This is a streetcar, totally different ballgame.

Also claiming that downtown has nothing to offer that anywhere else does is a poor attempt at taking a shot @ downtown. Not even worth arguing.

If it does I'm drawing a blank. There are hotels, eateries, etc but those can be found anywhere. I'm just saying in my personal experience. I don't go downtown for anything other than bass pro, the thunder and the redhawks/Dodgers. Granted when I'm down there for those I usually do other things. So if it came down to being an utter pain to get down there, I personally wouldn't miss much. And fwiw most everyone I hang out with feels the same and we all technically live in OKC.

Different strokes for different folks.

[ljbab728]

If it does I'm drawing a blank. There are hotels, eateries, etc but those can be found anywhere. I'm just saying in my personal experience. I don't go downtown for anything other than bass pro, the thunder and the redhawks/Dodgers. Granted when I'm down there for those I usually do other things. So if it came down to being an utter pain to get down there, I personally wouldn't miss much. And fwiw most everyone I hang out with feels the same and we all technically live in OKC.

Different strokes for different folks.

Obviously you are not a fan of theater or performing arts. Those are my main reasons for numerous trips downtown since I don't work near there and don't attend the sports events. I'm normally there at least once or twice a month for something like that.

[Zuplar]

Obviously you are not a fan of theater or performing arts. Those are my main reasons for numerous trips downtown since I don't work near there and don't attend the sports events. I'm normally there at least once or twice a month for something like that.

No I'm really not. If anything I go to the Jazz lab at uco in Edmond.

[hoya]

I just see it all as a big hassle for those of us that go downtown that drive, which is most everyone in Oklahoma. What that makes me envision is less parking, or the need to drive to a station, to get on some sort of public transportation to get to downtown because there is little to no parking downtown. That would keep me from going downtown. I'm not going to drive my car to a bus stop/street car stop, pay money for parking, then pay to get on the transit, just to get downtown. I'm going to go elsewhere. At this point there isn't much downtown that isn't elsewhere, accept for the Thunder and OKC Dodgers. Where I live now I'm never going to be able to be without a car, and I'm fine with that. I feel like too much focus on public transit and not a balanced approach, is just going to push many people away.

"Balanced" approach? Good god, man. There's virtually zero useful public transportation currently. We've got a half-dead bus system and that's it. The streetcar is the first new proposal that is actually going to be built or receive any funding. You're right it's not balanced, but that's because everything is so heavily in favor of the automobile in this city, not because we're dumping billions into public transportation.

[Just the facts]

3 miles of I-40 cost $600 million. We are a long way from balanced.

[ljbab728]

No I'm really not. If anything I go to the Jazz lab at uco in Edmond.

OK, you were drawing a blank on reasons to go downtown so I was filling in that blank a little.

[hoya]

Zuplar, I mean no offense by this, because you're a good poster and downtown is for everyone in the city to enjoy, but if your hoped-for vision of downtown is that in 20 years you'll be able to drive down there in no traffic and park in the Bass Pro Shop parking lot for free like you can today, then I hope your vision never comes true.

The streetcar that is currently funded and about to be built will look like this:



You'll be able to park at Bass Pro, or whatever your chosen location is, and ride the streetcar all over downtown. Want to see a Thunder game, then go to Midtown to eat at a new restaurant, then go to Automobile Alley to shop at some of their cool unique stores, then back to Bricktown to try one of their cigar bars? Take the streetcar. You can travel several miles through downtown and never have to get back in your car or look for a parking space. Just leave it parked where it is. The biggest advantage to the streetcar is that developers know where the tracks are, they know they aren't moving tomorrow. This raises property values along the streetcar line and encourages developers to build more stuff. If I put a restaurant 50 feet from a streetcar stop, I know that I'll have people going by regularly.

You're thinking of light rail, which (hopefully) will get built at some point in the future.

If downtown ever gets to the point where you have to park out by the fairgrounds and then take the train into Bricktown, then that's going to mean there is a LOT of stuff to do there. The number of people there, and the number of things to do, will be so great that it will be almost unrecognizable compared to how it is today. Now it may not be a place for you -- my dad moved out to the boonies as soon as he retired and I think I can probably count the number of times he's ever been downtown on one hand. You might be like him. But the fact is, the more we get good urban development, the better our downtown will be, and the better our city will be.

It would take 50 years of solid growth, with massive public transportation spending, to turn OKC into some parking-free urbanist dream. That's not going to happen. People in OKC, for the foreseeable future anyway, will use cars, a lot. But you are right, we do need balance. The streetcar is the very first step.

[no1cub17]

I sure hope so. My big thing is I don't want people to forget what we are. It's great to have options, but to shove a one-sided approach down our throats is another. What you describe isn't bad. What I have in my mind would be something like me driving to a parking lot at 240 and May and then it taking another 25 minutes to get downtown with all the stops along the way. That's ridiculous, but I couldn't tell you how many times that's what it's felt like in other major cities that have more public transportation options.

It's not ridiculous at all. That's how life is in urban places like Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, etc. The fact that we're even having this discussion on an OKC board is in some ways mind-boggling. Public transit was unthinkable here for the past million years, but in just a few years it'll be a reality.

And it'll also be a reality that vibrant, lively downtowns will be difficult to park in. Try parking in Wrigleyville on a summer day, or center city Philly on any day. Parking is a chore. It's crowded, garages are full and/or expensive, and then you'll forget where you parked. But that's exactly the point.

[betts]

But the red line stops right at Wrigley so who wants to drive anyway?

[Zuplar]

Zuplar, I mean no offense by this, because you're a good poster and downtown is for everyone in the city to enjoy, but if your hoped-for vision of downtown is that in 20 years you'll be able to drive down there in no traffic and park in the Bass Pro Shop parking lot for free like you can today, then I hope your vision never comes true.

The streetcar that is currently funded and about to be built will look like this:



You'll be able to park at Bass Pro, or whatever your chosen location is, and ride the streetcar all over downtown. Want to see a Thunder game, then go to Midtown to eat at a new restaurant, then go to Automobile Alley to shop at some of their cool unique stores, then back to Bricktown to try one of their cigar bars? Take the streetcar. You can travel several miles through downtown and never have to get back in your car or look for a parking space. Just leave it parked where it is. The biggest advantage to the streetcar is that developers know where the tracks are, they know they aren't moving tomorrow. This raises property values along the streetcar line and encourages developers to build more stuff. If I put a restaurant 50 feet from a streetcar stop, I know that I'll have people going by regularly.

You're thinking of light rail, which (hopefully) will get built at some point in the future.

If downtown ever gets to the point where you have to park out by the fairgrounds and then take the train into Bricktown, then that's going to mean there is a LOT of stuff to do there. The number of people there, and the number of things to do, will be so great that it will be almost unrecognizable compared to how it is today. Now it may not be a place for you -- my dad moved out to the boonies as soon as he retired and I think I can probably count the number of times he's ever been downtown on one hand. You might be like him. But the fact is, the more we get good urban development, the better our downtown will be, and the better our city will be.

It would take 50 years of solid growth, with massive public transportation spending, to turn OKC into some parking-free urbanist dream. That's not going to happen. People in OKC, for the foreseeable future anyway, will use cars, a lot. But you are right, we do need balance. The streetcar is the very first step.

FWIW I'm never offended by a well thought out response, that is as long as it's not directly bashing me . Over the years I've really enjoyed the small town feel of downtown. Granted I enjoy some of the big city amenities, to me density just creates more headaches than it's worth. I get that it's more efficient, makes tons of sense, but to me it makes things less enjoyable. I've been to DC, NYC, and Chicago over the years. DC is the only town of those 3 I like, and my reason for it is because to some degree it's more spread out. Granted it's still someplace I could never live, but it is a place I wouldn't mind going once every 10 years. It's that that makes me fear that the closer OKC get's to that the less and less I'll go. People like my parents already hardly go because of parking. As soon as they have to take any sort of public transit to get where they need to go, well I can tell you right now they won't ever go downtown again, unless they know for a fact they can park in front of the location. People like my parents have never ridden on a subway, and there is a lot of people out there like them. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

[betts]

Age is no impediment to an adventurous spirit. There are already a fair number of empty nesters and older who live downtown. Some lived most of their lives in small towns and are renting downtown because of all the activities available. Don't sell your parents or other people's parents short. My mother at 85 was riding a bicycle to the grocery store because she thought it was more enjoyable than driving. I predict the streetcar will be a big inducement to come downtown, as it will make getting around far simpler for people who can't walk long distances, who are afraid they'll get lost (as silly as that sounds, for some it's a real fear), for those with handicaps. And it's fun to ride and sightsee.

I believe the streetcar will change the face of the city more than any other MAPS project, and in a good way.

[AP]

I was writing out a response similar to betts, but I think she covered it pretty well.

[Just the facts]

I've been to DC, NYC, and Chicago over the years. DC is the only town of those 3 I like, and my reason for it is because to some degree it's more spread out.

You know what is kind of funny is that myself and the other Urbanist (both old and new) are striving for the low and mid-rise towers and density that is along the lines of DC, while the suburbanites that just want something cool to look at from 10 miles away are striving for the NYC and Chicago style. Just look at the discussions around 499 Sheridan, Clayco, and Devon Tower. We for the most part want street interaction and ornamental architecture and they (you can decide who 'they' are) want height, glass, and neon lights.

[Zuplar]

Age is no impediment to an adventurous spirit. There are already a fair number of empty nesters and older who live downtown. Some lived most of their lives in small towns and are renting downtown because of all the activities available. Don't sell your parents or other people's parents short. My mother at 85 was riding a bicycle to the grocery store because she thought it was more enjoyable than driving. I predict the streetcar will be a big inducement to come downtown, as it will make getting around far simpler for people who can't walk long distances, who are afraid they'll get lost (as silly as that sounds, for some it's a real fear), for those with handicaps. And it's fun to ride and sightsee.

I believe the streetcar will change the face of the city more than any other MAPS project, and in a good way.

I'm not selling them short. They legitimately don't go down there anymore cause of how much busier it is. When I talked about my recent DC trip and they asked how I got around I told them the Metro, and showed pictures. Their comment, they could never go there because getting around looks like a nightmare. They aren't people who try things, and most of their friends are the same way.

I honestly imagine lots of people who grew up in the OKC suburbs are like this, and I say that because that is my experience. When I talk about the places I've been they all oh and awe, because they are terrified that they wouldn't be able to navigate such a place, because public transit is so foreign to them or they think only poor people ride buses. That may sound harsh, but realistically, that's a very common thought. It's going to take years maybe decades to reverse that trend IMO. I'd honestly bet that it's going to take until the current generation is old until it's thought of as normal around these neck of the woods.

[Zuplar]

You know what is kind of funny is that myself and the other Urbanist (both old and new) are striving for the low and mid-rise towers and density that is along the lines of DC, while the suburbanites that just want something cool to look at from 10 miles away are striving for the NYC and Chicago style. Just look at the discussions around 499 Sheridan, Clayco, and Devon Tower. We for the most part want street interaction and ornamental architecture and they (you can decide who 'they' are) want height, glass, and neon lights.

I don't spend a lot of time in those threads, cause frankly, I'm never going to live downtown. With that being said I'm definitely not one that just cares about shiny and tall things. I'd much rather see downtown built more like DC, it just doesn't seem like that's how it's being built, it all seems to be concentrated in a very small area. The streetcar is also something DC doesn't have, I'd be much more on board with a true subway system.

[Pete]

Age is no impediment to an adventurous spirit. There are already a fair number of empty nesters and older who live downtown. Some lived most of their lives in small towns and are renting downtown because of all the activities available. Don't sell your parents or other people's parents short. My mother at 85 was riding a bicycle to the grocery store because she thought it was more enjoyable than driving. I predict the streetcar will be a big inducement to come downtown, as it will make getting around far simpler for people who can't walk long distances, who are afraid they'll get lost (as silly as that sounds, for some it's a real fear), for those with handicaps. And it's fun to ride and sightsee.

I believe the streetcar will change the face of the city more than any other MAPS project, and in a good way.

The streetcar in combination with a full-service grocery (rumored to be planned on or near the Bleu Garten site) would make downtown a fantastic place for older people.

Where else in OKC can you take reliable public transportation to and from a store that serves almost all your needs?

The streetcar route will also go very near the YMCA (actually, three of them), St. Anthony and related medical offices, the library, museums, etc.

Truly urbanized areas are the best possible place for an aging population and we've got the massive baby boomer generation headed to retirement over the next couple of decades.


It's funny how everyone talks about younger people when it comes to the urban core but in many ways the area is far better suited to older generations.

[Urban Pioneer]

So true.

[Just the facts]

I don't spend a lot of time in those threads, cause frankly, I'm never going to live downtown. With that being said I'm definitely not one that just cares about shiny and tall things. I'd much rather see downtown built more like DC, it just doesn't seem like that's how it's being built, it all seems to be concentrated in a very small area. The streetcar is also something DC doesn't have, I'd be much more on board with a true subway system.

You sound like the target market for the Wheeler District (minus the mass-transit preference of course). Also, you are not the only one dismayed by how downtown (CBD) is being developed.

[Zuplar]

You sound like the target market for the Wheeler District (minus the mass-transit preference of course). Also, you are not the only one dismayed by how downtown (CBD) is being developed.

Problem is I work in the suburbs, so living anywhere even remotely close to downtown would never ever work. I know I've received flak on this before, but that area just isn't an area of town I associate with being a desirable place to live. A lot of that outlook has to do with the where and the way I was raised I'm sure.

[hoya]

I'm not selling them short. They legitimately don't go down there anymore cause of how much busier it is. When I talked about my recent DC trip and they asked how I got around I told them the Metro, and showed pictures. Their comment, they could never go there because getting around looks like a nightmare. They aren't people who try things, and most of their friends are the same way.

I honestly imagine lots of people who grew up in the OKC suburbs are like this, and I say that because that is my experience. When I talk about the places I've been they all oh and awe, because they are terrified that they wouldn't be able to navigate such a place, because public transit is so foreign to them or they think only poor people ride buses. That may sound harsh, but realistically, that's a very common thought. It's going to take years maybe decades to reverse that trend IMO. I'd honestly bet that it's going to take until the current generation is old until it's thought of as normal around these neck of the woods.

Well, part of that reluctance has to do with jumping into an unfamiliar city with a fully developed system that they've never used before. OKC isn't going to suddenly have something as complex and far-reaching as the DC Metro. I think for the first year or two, the streetcar downtown will be more like a carnival ride. People will get on it and ride it just to say they got on it and rode it. A lot of people will be very curious and will want to try it out, even if they have nowhere to go.

The fact that it basically follows a loop means it will be nearly impossible to get lost. If you miss your stop, just stay on it longer and it will come back to where you were supposed to be in like 20 minutes. I don't know your parents, but I'd guess if you rode it with them two or three times, they'd become a lot more comfortable with it and may enjoy it. New and scary things often just need the right introduction to become safe and familiar things.

At the end of the day, nobody has to ride the streetcar if they don't want to. There will always be parking spaces downtown. And there will always be people who don't want what downtown has to offer. Not every person has to be in love with the idea of living in Deep Deuce and going without a car. Right now we've got downtown housing for about 1% of our population. Even fairly conservative estimates show that about 10% of the population would like that type of lifestyle. Will everyone in OKC want it? Of course not. But we don't need everybody to want it.

[OKCinsomniac]

I honestly imagine lots of people who grew up in the OKC suburbs are like this, and I say that because that is my experience.

Well, I grew up in the suburbs. I've lived there and worked there, and lived there and worked downtown. Now I both live and work downtown. My only regret is that I didn't take the "plunge" into a more urban situation sooner. I don't want to live or work anywhere else as long as I'm in OKC. I'm down to using my car maybe once or twice a week. With the advent of the streetcar it will be even less. And I love it. And frankly, 90% of my friends, most from a similar suburban upbringing, would feel the same way. We must run in different circles. I'm not trying to start an argument, but where is all the demand for urban living coming from? It's not just people from other cities used to living downtown somewhere, it's also from people sick of mowing their yard or wanting a greater sense of community or maybe just tired of the general level of excitement that is life in a generic subdivision someplace. I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying that people from the 'burbs are somehow conditioned or destined to keep on living there no matter what. For a lot of people, living downtown actually makes daily life easier -- and, to stay on topic, the streetcar will only increase this advantage.