OK Gazette: Millennials are changing the city forever

[AP]

I find that I stop in to NR almost like a convenience store when I'm walking by. Stop in and get a soda and snack and on my way.

[betts]

I cannot say I agree with you. Most people, even younger people, would rather have their own car than take the bus. Even in Charlotte a majority of people I knew who took the bus only did so as a last resort. People who want to live a completely car-free lifestyle probably aren't going to consider a city like OKC in the first place.

I do agree that having a streetcar and commuter rail are good investments, but I still wonder if OKC has a high enough population density for those options to be successful.

My husband used to agree with you. Then we moved downtown. He works at Mercy and says he is shocked at the current volume of traffic on the Broadway Extension. He is now decidedly pro-commuter rail.

I ride the bus with my kids all the time when visiting them in Chicago and San Francisco. Between four of them they have 1 car. They say the bus beats driving hands down and I have to agree with them. I didn't have a car when I lived in Denver and rode the bus everywhere. When it's frequent and convenient, attitudes often change.

[bchris02]

I ride the bus with my kids all the time when visiting them in Chicago and San Francisco. Between four of them they have 1 car. They say the bus beats driving hands down and I have to agree with them. I didn't have a car when I lived in Denver and rode the bus everywhere. When it's frequent and convenient, attitudes often change.

San Francisco and Chicago have very, very different cultures compared to OKC and mass transit is an integral part of it. Denver is not on the level of SF or Chicago but it is still very different compared to OKC. Much of me is skeptical of mass transit really being compatible with the culture in central Oklahoma, especially the bus. I will be very interested to see how much use the bus system here gets now that they've expanded their hours. The streetcar and commuter rail are different animals serving different purposes than the metro bus system and I think could be successful if done correctly.

[bradh]

I'd love some commuter rail. I'd also love some shuttle bus action for Thunder games too (San Antonio did this for years when they played at the Alamodome, but parking down there was non-existent).

I would never really be able to use commuter rail for my work (field work requires me leaving the office to jobsites) but I think once people realized what they could get out of it, I think some of those attitudes could change bchris.

[no1cub17]

That sounds like me, living in far north OKC. I would like to move downtown but I won't do it until basic amenities such as a grocery store and drug store no longer require a 10-15 minute drive to suburbia. I had the opportunity to do it about a month ago but this is a deal breaker for me.

As betts mentioned, Native Roots has 95% of what you need on a daily basis, whether it's produce, bread, naan, organic garbanzo beans, fresh made hummus, etc. Their fruit and yogurt parfaits are my new weakness. We probably go 3-4 times a week at least.

The ironic thing is if people keep saying "well I'm not going to move downtown until such-and-such is there" - the formulaic chains will never come in - they want the people there first, then they'll come in. The good part is situations like we have at the moment attract the new, young, local entrepreneurs, or the local groups (324). Who cares if some big box retailer is here or not?

And if you want a drug store, the CVS and Walgreens at 23rd and classen are just a few minutes away. Hardly suburbia. And if native roots doesn't have what you need, whole foods is 7-8 minutes away, and also hardly suburbia.

[bradh]

Amenities aren't the issue for most. It's the "S" word, but that's been discussed to death in many other threads. I applaud those working to make that better, and I have high hopes for it.

[bchris02]

It's not a very well kept secret that Buy for Less has an Uptown Grocery planned for Midtown within the next five years - rumor being on the Bleu Garten site once their lease is up. That is an Oklahoma-owned company and will fill a huge hole in OKC's core in so many different ways. It will also drive a lot of people, myself included, who currently won't live downtown due to lack of these conveniences to reconsider it.

[Motley]

Article on the subject:

Young Americans: Yearning for the Suburbs, Stuck in the City - The Atlantic

[Plutonic Panda]

Even millenials who choose to live outside the core want mass transit. That is what we are missing. Good mass transit will help keep neighborhoods that are farther out from being abandoned for new housing on the far perimeter of the 'burbs. We need commuter rail, a better bus system and an expanded streetcar system if we want this city to keep progressing. MAPS has done a fantastic job of improving leisure time options and it's now time to make it easy and safe to get to them.

I don't want mass transit in the suburbs.

[jerrywall]

I don't want mass transit in the suburbs.

Why? What's the downside of a train running from OKC to Norman daily? Or a fixed wheel line, or even the bussing that we have now? When I was living in Edmond and working in Norman I was dreaming of being able to drive to the farmers market downtown, park, and ride a train.

[betts]

I was talking about mass transit TO the suburbs, not within them. That's the choice/responsibility of the local municipality regardless, not OKC.

[bchris02]

I would really like to see commuter rail built from downtown into Quail Springs Mall. I would like to see OKC be really forward thinking and incorporate the rail station into the mall itself as part of an expansion. Wouldn't that be nice, for instance, to convert the AMC theater into a mall expansion that includes the boarding station for commuter rail to downtown?

[bradh]

I would really like to see commuter rail built from downtown into Quail Springs Mall. I would like to see OKC be really forward thinking and incorporate the rail station into the mall itself as part of an expansion. Wouldn't that be nice, for instance, to convert the AMC theater into a mall expansion that includes the boarding station for commuter rail to downtown?

You'd have better luck including it into Chisolm Creek I would think, or somewhere in south Edmond along the existing tracks.

[adaniel]

Commuter rail, by its definition, carries commuters usually from suburb center to city center. Most commuter rail systems don't deviate too much from old existing railroad ROW (think Metra in Chicago, LIRR in NYC, Trinity Railway in DFW, etc.) That is usually the job of light rail or other intercity trains.

[Plutonic Panda]

Why? What's the downside of a train running from OKC to Norman daily? Or a fixed wheel line, or even the bussing that we have now? When I was living in Edmond and working in Norman I was dreaming of being able to drive to the farmers market downtown, park, and ride a train.

I meant having buses that serve the entire Edmond area and or buses that serve NW OKC. I would be all for having a commuter rail to downtown Edmond and Norman.

[bradh]

Commuter rail, by its definition, carries commuters usually from suburb center to city center. Most commuter rail systems don't deviate too much from old existing railroad ROW (think Metra in Chicago, LIRR in NYC, Trinity Railway in DFW, etc.) That is usually the job of light rail or other intercity trains.

Yeah I think it's pretty obvious the northern commuter rail would run along the existing line following Santa Fe.

[bchris02]

Commuter rail, by its definition, carries commuters usually from suburb center to city center. Most commuter rail systems don't deviate too much from old existing railroad ROW (think Metra in Chicago, LIRR in NYC, Trinity Railway in DFW, etc.) That is usually the job of light rail or other intercity trains.

I wasn't aware there was a difference between light rail and commuter rail. I think in a small city like OKC, light rail would be plenty good enough to serve all of the mass transit demand that can be supported here for at least the next quarter century. Charlotte is much larger than OKC and is served quite well by light rail. True commuter rail, in my opinion, would be overkill in a metro area this small.

[warreng88]

I wasn't aware there was a difference between light rail and commuter rail. I think in a small city like OKC, light rail would be plenty good enough to serve all of the mass transit demand that can be supported here for at least the next quarter century. Charlotte is much larger than OKC and is served quite well by light rail. True commuter rail, in my opinion, would be overkill in a metro area this small.

Light rail refers to new rail lines for trains traveling at much higher speeds. Commuter Rail is heavy rail, basically the trains we see now on the tracks taking commuters. I think you have it backwards.

[Plutonic Panda]

Light rail refers to new rail lines for trains traveling at much higher speeds. Commuter Rail is heavy rail, basically the trains we see now on the tracks taking commuters. I think you have it backwards.

I thought commuter rail was faster, and light-rail was slower, but smoother and had more stops?

[boitoirich]

I wasn't aware there was a difference between light rail and commuter rail. I think in a small city like OKC, light rail would be plenty good enough to serve all of the mass transit demand that can be supported here for at least the next quarter century. Charlotte is much larger than OKC and is served quite well by light rail. True commuter rail, in my opinion, would be overkill in a metro area this small.

I thought commuter rail was faster, and light-rail was slower, but smoother and had more stops?

This one's on me, fellas. The difference between the various modes on rail transit in one easy-to-follow guide:
http://www.reconnectingamerica.org/a...ractice175.pdf

[Plutonic Panda]

This one's on me, fellas. The difference between the various modes on rail transit in one easy-to-follow guide:
http://www.reconnectingamerica.org/a...ractice175.pdf

Thank you. That is awesome. I would love to see dedicated bus lanes added on Classen and NW Expressway for a BRT route.

[kevinpate]

I don't want mass transit in the suburbs.

Stingy.

I'd be quite happy if the currrent Sooner Express had a couple of extra runs in it, say one departing Norman at 11ish and going back from OKC at noon. this would split in half the current waits.

Add in an evening bus run from Norman at say 7 or 7:30 with a return at 11:30 pm or later.

Yeah, local business would hate that, but it would open a lot of business for folks who might want an evening in OKC but not have to fret/fuss over driving the distance after.

[Plutonic Panda]

Stingy.

I'd be quite happy if the currrent Sooner Express had a couple of extra runs in it, say one departing Norman at 11ish and going back from OKC at noon. this would split in half the current waits.

Add in an evening bus run from Norman at say 7 or 7:30 with a return at 11:30 pm or later.

Yeah, local business would hate that, but it would open a lot of business for folks who might want an evening in OKC but not have to fret/fuss over driving the distance after.

If you want access to adequate mass transit, you should live closer to the city.

[no1cub17]

I cannot say I agree with you. Most people, even younger people, would rather have their own car than take the bus. Even in Charlotte a majority of people I knew who took the bus only did so as a last resort. People who want to live a completely car-free lifestyle probably aren't going to consider a city like OKC in the first place.

I do agree that having a streetcar and commuter rail are good investments, but I still wonder if OKC has a high enough population density for those options to be successful.

We can create the population density required to sustain a streetcar and other forms of mass transit. If we don't build it that way, mass transit is a nonstarter. But you follow downtown pretty closely - look at the rents and prices people are paying for real estate here. It sure seems as though there's enough demand, whether from current OKC residents, or from people moving to OKC, to live in an urban setting.

Your evidence that everyone still wants to use a car seems purely anecdotal. Sure, there will always be people who want to drive. When we meet friends for dinner in midtown, some of them are astounded that yes, we would actually have the nerve to walk a mile-plus to dinner. What a novel concept! But there sure are a great many like us who enjoy a nice walk. Assuming we don't get run over by one of the many inconsiderate drivers here.

[bchris02]

I didn't say nobody wants to live downtown or in an urban setting and that there is no demand for mass transit. I believe the city's downtown resurgence will only accelerate as more amenities are offered in the core. However, I believe more are still choosing suburbia. In fact, if I had to guesstimate 3 out of 4 people under age 30 I've meet since living in OKC either live north of 63rd or south of I-240. I know a lot of people in their early twenties buying homes in Edmond, something you don't see in a lot of other metropolitan areas. I think it's because of a combination of low real estate costs and the OKC culture that encourages people to settle down young. I also hang out almost exclusively downtown. I think the streetcar will be successful and really spur development but the bus is a transit form of last resort for a lot of people and I don't see that changing.