BOK Park Plaza

[Just the facts]

I talked with Meg at length yesterday. Preservation and urbanity is close to her heart

You know - I am going to bull**** on this. I am sick of people in positions of authority paying lip service to the cause. If she is part of the pro-urbanization contingency in OKC then we might as well fold up the tents and go home now because this development is proof that no one in an elected OKC position is what they say they are. I understand being out-numbered but for goodness sakes - STAND UP AND AT LEAST BE COUNTED!!!

[Urban Pioneer]

How about you spend a few million saving buildings and then call bull****.

[Pete]

The city didn't have much of a negotiating tool as the aren't any Tif dollars involved in the project.

The same could be said for Stage Center.

Also, the Stage Center owners -- after receiving the demo permit -- came back and asked for TIF dollars later. Nothing to stop Hines from doing the same in this instance.


Not disagreeing with your points, just clarifying.

[Urban Pioneer]

In response to Kerry- One thing I hate in our culture right now is this HOW FAR RIGHT CAN YOU GO?! HOW FAR LEFT CAN YOU GO?!

Governance is the art of compromise.

When somebody spends millions of their own money preserving properties and then doesn't publicly chastise another private property owner for making urbanity their cause, they are obviously in league. Give me a f+++++g break.

[Urban Pioneer]

The same could be said for Stage Center.

Also, the Stage Center owners -- after receiving the demo permit -- came back and asked for TIF dollars later. Nothing to stop Hines from doing the same in this instance.


Not disagreeing with your points, just clarifying.

I agree.

[RodH]

You know - I am going to bull**** on this. I am sick of people in positions of authority paying lip service to the cause. If she is part of the pro-urbanization contingency in OKC then we might as well fold up the tents and go home now because this development is proof that no one in an elected OKC position is what they say they are. I understand being out-numbered but for goodness sakes - STAND UP AND AT LEAST BE COUNTED!!!

Those are mighty strong words for someone who still lives in Florida. You shouldn't get to attack those who have made tangible contributions instead of just words. Their risk is greater.

[jerrywall]

How about you spend a few million saving buildings and then call bull****.

Oh come on. While actually do anything of substance when you can just post on a message board?

[Just the facts]

Those are mighty strong words for someone who still lives in Florida. You shouldn't get to attack those who have made tangible contributions instead of just words. Their risk is greater.

That is what I am saying though. If she, or someone else, wants to be a luke-warm whatever, then just call yourself that. A much as I don't care for Ed Shadid at least I know what he is going to stand for. Plus, she is not just a random private citizen. She has had the power for years to enact and advance city regulations that reflect her beliefs.

[Pete]

Speaking of Ed:

Ben Felder @benfelder_okg · 4h 4 hours ago
City council votes 7-2 against Shadid's request that city attorney challenge DDRC approval of 499 Sheridan request to demo buildings.

Ben Felder @benfelder_okg · 4h 4 hours ago
Shadid and White were the only votes in favor



Shadid may still pursue an appeal on his own.

[Pete]

Traded emails with David Pettyjohn of Preservation Oklahoma who told me their Board felt it futile to appeal, since the DDRC vote had been so lopsided.

[jn1780]

In response to Kerry- One thing I hate in our culture right now is this HOW FAR RIGHT CAN YOU GO?! HOW FAR LEFT CAN YOU GO?!

Governance is the art of compromise.

When somebody spends millions of their own money preserving properties and then doesn't publicly chastise another private property owner for making urbanity their cause, they are obviously in league. Give me a f+++++g break.

Well that's nice. Not much to really fight for now though.

[UnFrSaKn]

Once seen as essential, downtown parking garages are now being put to the wrecking ball | Star Tribune

[AP]

Further proves the point that OKC will be behind the trend in just about everything.

[warreng88]

I will be curious to see what the occupancy of these parking garages are like when we have an RTA, streetcar, improved bus schedules and light rail established. I know people will choose to drive their own cars, that will never be outlawed, but having all those things will cut down on a need for that much space.

[UnFrSaKn]

Best quote:

The demise of big garages is part of the continuing search for what makes downtowns work. In the 1960s and 1970s, cities experimented with building pedestrian malls and replacing old buildings with civic buildings or public spaces.

Many of those efforts failed. Or as Murphy put it, "What were designers drinking or smoking in the 1960s?"

[UnFrSaKn]

This version has a photo gallery.

Parking garages falling to the wrecking ball | The Salt Lake Tribune

[bchris02]

In OKC there is going to have to be parking so there is a choice. Does the city want structured parking or surface parking? I think structured parking is the lesser of two evils by a longshot. Of course the best solution would be to incorporate the parking at the base of a development or underground, but OKC developers can't seem to figure out how to do it.

[Just the facts]

I will be curious to see what the occupancy of these parking garages are like when we have an RTA, streetcar, improved bus schedules and light rail established. I know people will choose to drive their own cars, that will never be outlawed, but having all those things will cut down on a need for that much space.

They will generate their own demand and will most likely be full all the time. Just like adding more lanes to a freeway does nothing to relieve congestion, these garages will NOT solve downtown's parking problems. Downtown could have 1 parking space a 6 people would still drive down there to try and park in it.

OKC is trying to solve a problem by using a solution that created the problem in the first place. Downtown parking is a problem because people have to drive cars to get there. The only viable solution is to take the car out of the equation. Any solution that doesn't do that is temporary at best and is nothing more than kicking the can - literally - down the road.

[TU 'cane]

Once seen as essential, downtown parking garages are now being put to the wrecking ball | Star Tribune

If they are done strategically, and not just put up to cover an entire city block (like this development), they can be extremely useful, not only for the weekly workforce, but when there is an event being hosted somewhere nearby and people can shoot into the garage for parking. It works in downtown Tulsa if you have access to them or are willing to pay.

Further proves the point that OKC will be behind the trend in just about everything.

The problem is that we, the common folk, see no reason why there can't be parking built underneath this "tower." OnePlace in downtown Tulsa recently did it, and it's probably the most efficient and best part about the entire development.
This development is, as stated many times already, lazy and stamped by "The Nichols" who wants a glass kingdom around MG.
And their excuse about it being too expensive (yes, that's an excuse with a development such as this) is lame. They can require TIF funding just like everyone else to offset or greatly help with the cost. Boom, there's one parking garage gone on the block under the tower, saving some of the other buildings.

[betts]

This version has a photo gallery.

Parking garages falling to the wrecking ball | The Salt Lake Tribune

In other words, we're still stuck in the 60s while other peer cities have figured it out.

[Pete]

And just yesterday, City Council approved the first step of a new TIF district specifically to fund the Convention Hotel and Convention Garage.

Plus, I know of at least one more big garage planned for just west of the Clayco site.

From https://twitter.com/shanehamp:

[hoya]

The problem here is that Larry Nichols doesn't see anything wrong with it, and no one with power is willing to stand up to Larry Nichols. It's not that people in OKC are stuck in the 60s, people recognize that this is not a good design. We heard the criticism of the block of parking garages at the public hearings. The problem is translating that knowledge into action.

[Motley]

Has anyone done a comparison of cities for parking spaces per employee or per sq ft of office space? How does OKC's current numbers compare to other downtowns? According to the proposal for this project, didn't they claim that OKC was severely lacking in space.

[Just the facts]

In other words, we're still stuck in the 60s while other peer cities have figured it out.

The whole world has already figured it out. I'll see if I can find it again but a couple years of ago I watched a program on parking in Europe. I posted the video somewhere here on OKCTalk. Here is the deal though, using alternatives to the automobile only works for those who use the alternative. People who still participate in the problem will experience the problem. Promising to relieve congestion or parking issues is where the pro-mass transit advocates miss the boat because people who want to drive will do so no matter how frustrating or expensive it is. What OKC has to do is make the alternatives more of a priority so that those who drive only because they have to can have a choice.

[TU 'cane]

Not gonna lie, that render that Pete just put up, if everything comes through as it's "supposed" to, OKC is gonna have a killer skyline here in a few years. From some angles, it'll look like a slightly miniature replica of Dallas', and I know few people will cringe at that, but most won't.

Take this view, for example (take away reunion tower and just look at the "pyramid effect"):