Lumberyard

[Pete]

Believe the property is still under contract and the developers are still working towards the project, just on a scaled-down basis.

[soondoc]

Scaled down, what the heck? Hey, glad to hear it is still a possibility. Maybe they are only scaling it down a couple of floors. lol Thanks for the update.

[Bellaboo]

Pete, have you or any one heard any more rumblings about this project? With all the things about to happen in BT, I think this place would be awesome. When you factor in that the Clayco residential may be delayed, this would be the spot to be in. I think Westbrook or other Thunder players just might buy a Penthouse there! I love the renderings and would think this would be a home run.

Westbrook has a 1.9 million place out in far NE OKC. KD already has a place at the Hill. A lot of players never 'buy', due to the short term player contracts.

[Snowman]

... A lot of players never 'buy', due to the short term player contracts.

Not to mention the ones who experience being traded and being the last one to know.

[edcrunk]

I disagree. Sorry, but color me "bleh" about most buildings under 25 stories. Even at that, it is minuscule and doesn't add much. If all we are getting is two 20 story towers, then for me it's moving on to the next project hoping for something better.

I DJ'd in Little Rick recently and noticed 2 new towers about that shape and size in close proximity to one another and was impressed and even a little jealous. Would I love a 40+ story tower... Yes. However, even 2 midrises in that location would be awesome!

[bchris02]

I DJ'd in Little Rick recently and noticed 2 new towers about that shape and size in close proximity to one another and was impressed and even a little jealous. Would I love a 40+ story tower... Yes. However, even 2 midrises in that location would be awesome!

I lived in Little Rock for little while and some of the spec development they were getting in the mid-2000s was pretty impressive. I would be happy for OKC to get mid-rise residential even on that scale. One thing they have managed to do is build parking under the structure...something developers in OKC still don't understand in 2015.

[Chadanth]

I lived in Little Rock for little while and some of the spec development they were getting in the mid-2000s was pretty impressive. I would be happy for OKC to get mid-rise residential even on that scale. One thing they have managed to do is build parking under the structure...something developers in OKC still don't understand in 2015.

3-4 buildings on this scale would be great for that part of Bricktown.

[Spartan]

The thing is that that's a significant massing impact in Little Rock. In our downtown, most everything is 6-15 stories. You probably don't notice that because we have a compact CBD high-rise core that makes everything around it look small. That's why we have such acute parking issues.

However, 1) if I were to guess anything for this site, it would be more pedestrian; 2) if we have to have skyscrapers, this could be a good low-impact area to relegate them to. Superblock away down there, given the "boulevard" that ODOT apparently is going to deliver.

[OKCisOK4me]

^^like

[hoya]

The nice thing about 10-15 story buildings is that they're relatively low-risk from an investment perspective. They're a lot cheaper to build than 25+ story towers. We've gotten a number of hotels in that size over the last several years. They don't really add much to our skyline unless you're at the exact right angle, but they're great at street level.

Personally I think OKC should try to get as many buildings in this range as we can. Drop thirty or forty 10 story structures in our downtown adjacent areas over the next twenty years and you'll see more benefits than you ever would with two or three 500 footers.

[David]

That's been my opinion since I took a trip to DC last year. You don't have to have giant towers to have a great street interaction, and sometimes you don't even get that.

[Spartan]

I wonder if we could get twenty pages out of singing the praises of medium-scale urban infill... first we need a new thread called Mystery Medium-Scale Infill!

[AP]

we need a new thread called Mystery Medium-Scale Infill!

+1

[bchris02]

I wonder if we could get twenty pages out of singing the praises of medium-scale urban infill...

Both have their place.

I was in Dallas this weekend and it sure is an awesome city. I love how they have a tall, vibrant CBD surrounded by virtually endless medium-scale infill. No grass lots there. It would be great to see Bricktown and Midtown fill in that way.

[TU 'cane]

I wonder if we could get twenty pages out of singing the praises of medium-scale urban infill... first we need a new thread called Mystery Medium-Scale Infill!

I propose the following:

OG&E Energy Center - OKCTalk

Seriously, Little Rock has some good stuff going on, kudos to them. However, the Clayco development IS our Little Rock type of development that's been mentioned. Of course Clayco is talking about scaling back, at least the timeline, but the proposal for the SC block and the one just South will be huge for OKC. I mean, HUGE. We're talking on terms of the downtown population, bringing more businesses, stores, both grocery and retail, etc. into the CBD. Over the years, developers will see that it's okay to proceed with projects like this and that's when we'll start seeing projects like the BT Towers (the actual rendering above) come to fruition.

A lot will also hinge on what becomes of the CCC block. If development is done to it's potential there, that could also be a massive game changer for both the CBD as well as BT.

One step at a time.

[NWOKCGuy]

Don't be sillly. Little Rock doesn't have any development on par with the 4 buildings Clayco has proposed for OGE.

[DocThunder]

This project should go-forward as originally designed. The demand for this type of product is still high. If this group builds all (3) structures as shown, it will be the most desired place for an apartment or condo. There is little risk for High Demand.

...also, if this group build all 3 at the same time, and the Clayco group builds theirs at the same time....just think of the Perception of OKC is at that point......? Thriving. ..and that is how you lower your "risks". Then, OKC is still the talk of "how are you guys doing this...? Why is OKC still going ?" Build it and they will come.

[Rover]

I think the assumption of "build it and they will come" is a pretty quick way to financial failure. Only by investing some serious money into properly conducted market research can one get a real feel for the specific demand, and then there is still risk.

It amazes me how so many on here dismiss risk as a business consideration. And, how they dismiss $100 million as being easy to put at risk.

[bchris02]

Don't be sillly. Little Rock doesn't have any development on par with the 4 buildings Clayco has proposed for OGE.

I agree.

While the midrises Little Rock got during the mid 2000s were pretty impressive, especially for a city that size, they are below what is proposed on the Clayco site.

[OKCisOK4me]

I agree.

While the midrises Little Rock got during the mid 2000s were pretty impressive, especially for a city that size, they are below what is proposed on the Clayco site.

Yeah, but guess what? They still have an urban design that you can actually lean against. Clayco may be better but it's still just conceptual...at this point.

[bchris02]

Yeah, but guess what? They still have an urban design that you can actually lean against. Clayco may be better but it's still just conceptual...at this point.

Correct. The thing is, the Little Rock midrises were completely spec development and the economy there has never been anywhere near as hot as OKC has been over the past few years. Yet, they were built anyways.

[Rover]

To compare, one would have to know about other available housing options, construction vs rental costs, demand characteristics, etc. at the time, etc. To say that we should or shouldn't at this time based on what LR or any other city did or didn't do is not really realistic, just good conversation.

[Urbanized]

I think the assumption of "build it and they will come" is a pretty quick way to financial failure. Only by investing some serious money into properly conducted market research can one get a real feel for the specific demand, and then there is still risk.

It amazes me how so many on here dismiss risk as a business consideration. And, how they dismiss $100 million as being easy to put at risk.

It's because it's somebody else's risk, and someone else's $100 million.

[DocThunder]

I think the assumption of "build it and they will come" is a pretty quick way to financial failure. Only by investing some serious money into properly conducted market research can one get a real feel for the specific demand, and then there is still risk.

It amazes me how so many on here dismiss risk as a business consideration. And, how they dismiss $100 million as being easy to put at risk.

So tell me, what are the risk...? Lets run this mouse trap and see where it leads us. A Condo Developer has $$$ 100 M to spend in a property ....and is based in Tampa, Fl. Condo market is over saturated, the lending market is tight. The economy is increasing at only a snails pace of 1-2 %. Snowbirds from Northeast are still coming down, but with less to spend. Finding smaller less expensive properties to buy. ....So Florida is not a a low risk / high reward as it has been in the past. It is now a High Risk / Low Reward equation. ....so let's move this $$$ 100 M. to Dallas or Houston, The Tower Condo Market is active, and their are several new properties already filling up. Multiple projects ( towers are already ) to begin construction, and should make this market "Tight w/ an 85-90%" and your project would not open for 18 months. This would be a moderate exposure / with moderate reward....?

Now lets go back to my first statement..... High Demand / Low Inventory. ...this is what they look for when putting ( Millions at risk )...The is always risk in business, but the "research" is placing your product in the strongest position to beat the competition.

[Rover]

So tell me, what are the risk...? Lets run this mouse trap and see where it leads us. A Condo Developer has $$$ 100 M to spend in a property ....and is based in Tampa, Fl. Condo market is over saturated, the lending market is tight. The economy is increasing at only a snails pace of 1-2 %. Snowbirds from Northeast are still coming down, but with less to spend. Finding smaller less expensive properties to buy. ....So Florida is not a a low risk / high reward as it has been in the past. It is now a High Risk / Low Reward equation. ....so let's move this $$$ 100 M. to Dallas or Houston, The Tower Condo Market is active, and their are several new properties already filling up. Multiple projects ( towers are already ) to begin construction, and should make this market "Tight w/ an 85-90%" and your project would not open for 18 months. This would be a moderate exposure / with moderate reward....?

Now lets go back to my first statement..... High Demand / Low Inventory. ...this is what they look for when putting ( Millions at risk )...The is always risk in business, but the "research" is placing your product in the strongest position to beat the competition.

Obviously you've never tried to get financing for a $100 million project, or tried to raise the capital required to GET the financing. Or even a $10 million. Investors/financial institutions don't want feel good theories, they want as much factual information as you can provide, as well as your history of being right with similar projects. Contrary to what many think, they just don't hand out money because someone says they think this is cool, or is a sure bet.

Risks include cost overruns which make the market pricing too high... or economic lapses and bad real estate markets (people who wanted to rent or buy can't sell their current housing for what they thought or at all, meaning they can't buy yours).... that when you finish, the economy is rotten (2008-2014 for example).... that your demand survey wasn't correct.... etc. , etc., etc.