OG&E Energy Center

[bchris02]

There is no reason the residential towers won't be built if the market is truly there. Clayco makes money from building, not from cutting the towers out of the project. If there is no market, all the talk about the vibrancy of downtown and the concerns raised by the tower across the street seem misdirected. Are the people of OKC ready for high-rise downtown housing or not?

This is all true, but OKC is a market that get severely underestimated too often by businesses and developers in other markets. The market may be here yet Clayco may think it isn't because they aren't considering factors that are different here compared to other cities.

[jccouger]

There is no reason the residential towers won't be built if the market is truly there. Clayco makes money from building, not from cutting the towers out of the project. If there is no market, all the talk about the vibrancy of downtown and the concerns raised by the tower across the street seem misdirected. Are the people of OKC ready for high-rise downtown housing or not?

Not if oil companies (who make up like 80% of the downtown workforce) are cutting jobs. Its a huge risk right now with such a gloomy forecast.

[dcsooner]

The OG&E building although nice, looks like a miniature in relation to the Devon tower. The lack of any other tower even approaching Devons height to me still makes the limited DT skyline look out of proportion

[gopokes88]

Unless oil rebounds by July they'll be shelved and it'll take another year or two for a new project to emerge.

[mugofbeer]

Unless there is a dramatic event to cause oil to shoot up, futures prices for upcoming contracts all point the same or lower. Shale oi has changed things significantly

[Just the facts]

The OG&E building although nice, looks like a miniature in relation to the Devon tower. The lack of any other tower even approaching Devons height to me still makes the limited DT skyline look out of proportion

This is yet another reason why OKC should have switched to a form-based code so that new structures would have been built to the same scale as existing structures.

[mugofbeer]

Other than DC, what other major city does this?

[Just the facts]

Other than DC, what other major city does this?

Form-Based Codes? You?re not alone. | PlaceMakers

Accordingly, an ever-growing number of form-based codes are in the works, with clear regional concentrations. Big city adopters include Miami, Dallas, Denver, El Paso, Memphis, Baltimore, Nashville, Tulsa, Portland, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Austin, and Chattanooga.

If you want to see every City with form-based codes in the works here you go.

http://www.placemakers.com/wp-conten...ay2013_WEB.htm

[Plutonic Panda]

Form-Based Codes? You?re not alone. | PlaceMakers

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and color myself as skeptical if a 150 story tower was proposed in any of those cities they would be turned down. That list is also questionable because in Dallas there are tons of high-rises that but up against single story residences so try again.

[Just the facts]

If you follow the second link you will see Dallas form-based codes are in relation to TOD around DART.

[Plutonic Panda]

I just had a whole post typed up and I lost it.

Anyways, that's all fine. It isn't the whole city and it is unfair to act like it is. So Dallas does have form based codes across the city, it has it in very few areas. That's fine.

I am someone who does not care if a 50 story building was proposed at Covell and Coltrane or in Deep Deuce. After all, I though you only cared about the first 2-3 levels anyways. Anything higher and they can do what they want?

It's also funny because you often point out to smart land use and smart land use would have a taller tower on a plot of land making it more dense. More people living and working paying taxes and shopping in 100 story tower on 5,000 sq. ft. plot of land VS. a 3 story building.

[bchris02]

The Devon Tower doesn't look out of proportion from all angles. I promise that if the proposed towers do get built it will look a lot better, especially from the southwest which is where the skyline needs help the most.

[Just the facts]

So when do we start hearing from all the OG&E Center cheerleaders that the very concerns myself and the other urbanist raised, and since adopted by the developer, have ruined the project? If the developer had just called me on the phone and asked what needed to be changed think how much time and money they could have saved. I would have done it for free.

[SouthsideSooner]

So when do we start hearing from all the OG&E Center cheerleaders that the very concerns myself and the other urbanist raised, and since adopted by the developer, have ruined the project? If the developer had just called me on the phone and asked what needed to be changed think how much time and money they could have saved. I would have done it for free.

This ones easy, Kerry... show me one post or anything else for that matter that anyone was against reopening that street. Bonus question. Show me where your or any other urbanist's opinion had any influence on the developers decision.

But here's a better question for you... You advocate flipping the Clayco development so that the residential faces the MG which would drive up the most expensive lease rates in the city even higher and have stated that that's our best use of TIF funding...

How do you reconcile being a self confessed Tea Partier while being passionate about spending substantial tax dollars to subsidize housing for the very affluent so that they might go out and walk around downtown...

Just a heads up... They own some really nice cars and will still be driving all over the metro...and without parking for these cars, this project would be impossible...convince me otherwise.

[Spartan]

This ones easy, Kerry... show me one post or anything else for that matter that anyone was against reopening that street. Bonus question. Show me where your or any other urbanist's opinion had any influence on the developers decision.

But here's a better question for you... You advocate flipping the Clayco development so that the residential faces the MG which would drive up the most expensive lease rates in the city even higher and have stated that that's our best use of TIF funding...

How do you reconcile being a self confessed Tea Partier while being passionate about spending substantial tax dollars to subsidize housing for the very affluent so that they might go out and walk around downtown...

Just a heads up... They own some really nice cars and will still be driving all over the metro...and without parking for these cars, this project would be impossible...convince me otherwise.

You bring up the pitfalls of ideology, lol.

I will say that flipping the residential would be a good compromise to ensure that component get built. I am all for subsidizing parking - we have done that for virtually everything else that isn't just a parking development. We need to be consistent in how we apply TIF resources or else risk being seen as arbitrary and capricious.

I will also add that the updated plans with California are a move in the right direction. You don't see that with these larger projects very often.

[jccouger]

You bring up the pitfalls of ideology, lol.

I will say that flipping the residential would be a good compromise to ensure that component get built. I am all for subsidizing parking - we have done that for virtually everything else that isn't just a parking development. We need to be consistent in how we apply TIF resources or else risk being seen as arbitrary and capricious.

I will also add that the updated plans with California are a move in the right direction. You don't see that with these larger projects very often.

The bolded part is the best idea you've had yet.

The downtown school is really going to be stuck in such a dead part of town now, which I guess could be considered a positive since they won't be distracted by what is going on outside their windows.

[Bellaboo]

The bolded part is the best idea you've had yet.

The downtown school is really going to be stuck in such a dead part of town now, which I guess could be considered a positive since they won't be distracted by what is going on outside their windows.

Hunsucker Legal just completed their building just West of the school, we now have Clayco to the East. I think you must be kidding us here ?

[DocThunder]

Not if oil companies (who make up like 80% of the downtown workforce) are cutting jobs. Its a huge risk right now with such a gloomy forecast.

I know what you are saying could be an issue. The price of oil could be back up to 60 - 80 by the end of the year. They need to do the same thing DEVON did when building the tower in 08'. By the time the Residential Tower is completed, the O&G industry will be moderate again. This is not the 80's oil bust, it is a new market out there, the risk is much much lower today w/ fracking & horizontal.

So these developers need to keep going, and get these towers up, that is the smart move.

[Just the facts]

This ones easy, Kerry... show me one post or anything else for that matter that anyone was against reopening that street. Bonus question. Show me where your or any other urbanist's opinion had any influence on the developers decision.

I don't know if anyone was against re-opening California Ave or not, but I do know when myself and others raised that issue the usual suspects were on here defending the proposed design and accused us of hating development and growth - when all we wanted to do was make the growth better. Well now it is better so the only thing I can tell you is that it proved us right. Only Clayco could tell you who influenced them.

But here's a better question for you... You advocate flipping the Clayco development so that the residential faces the MG which would drive up the most expensive lease rates in the city even higher and have stated that that's our best use of TIF funding...

Moving the residential to front the park would justify the already premium price, not make it more expensive. This might shock some people, but premium priced residential won't work in any city if it over looks vacant industrial land, parking garages, or an adjacent office building. Those views are reserved for the lower price ranges. To me, the mere fact Clayco DIDN'T make it park-fronting is an indication that they aren't totally committed to it.

How do you reconcile being a self confessed Tea Partier while being passionate about spending substantial tax dollars to subsidize housing for the very affluent so that they might go out and walk around downtown...

Because the alternative is higher subsidy low density sprawl and isn't sustainable from a tax and revenue perspective. What you and others think is free-market sprawl is subsidized 9 ways from Sunday. Sprawl as we know it today was created by the Federal government in 1948. If we would simply charge for a gallon of gasoline what the actual price to produce it is we wouldn't have to subsidize downtown residential because people wouldn't be able to afford anything else. Look at the outrage over increasing the gasoline tax by 12 cents, when really it should be increased by $6 to cover the actual costs.

Just a heads up... They own some really nice cars and will still be driving all over the metro...and without parking for these cars, this project would be impossible...convince me otherwise.

That is why it is important to get things like 499 Sheridan and the Cox site right. There is no reason downtown could not be the premier shopping district in OKC. We just have to want to do it. The rest of the world has come up with innovative ways to park cars that don't require city block size parking garages. OKC is trying to apply 1980's technology to solve 2015 problems, and that is because we have a group of civic leaders trying to relive the fake glory of 1980 OKC. Here is a parking garage in Germany. How much better would this be than the parking garages we have seen proposed here.



Heck man - even this would be great around downtown OKC, and they could make them as tall as they need to be.



Put some of these in Auto Alley, Bricktown, at the Civic Center, etc...

[jccouger]

Hunsucker Legal just completed their building just West of the school, we now have Clayco to the East. I think you must be kidding us here ?

No offense to Jeep, his building is beautiful & one of my favorites in the entire City, but it doesn't add a whole lot of activity to the street. If the residential buildings don't get built the school is going to be facing parking garages to the north, northeast, and east. Allen Contracting the south also doesn't add a whole lot of vibrancy. There is absolutely nothing going on to the south west. The west headed to Film Row is starting to take off, but the active part is still a couple streets down & it still has a ways to go.

[Rover]

The downtown school is really going to be stuck in such a dead part of town now, which I guess could be considered a positive since they won't be distracted by what is going on outside their windows.

You have to be kidding about it being a dead part of town. Lots of mixed use development under serious consideration between the school and Classen. Film Row, SOSA, and up through MidTown are seeing great interest and over the next 10 years will probably be the greatest infill.

[jccouger]

You have to be kidding about it being a dead part of town. Lots of mixed use development under serious consideration between the school and Classen. Film Row, SOSA, and up through MidTown are seeing great interest and over the next 10 years will probably be the greatest infill.

I want to make it clear that the term "dead" is used contingently on the apartment towers not being built, which is seeming more & more like the case with each passing day but is still an assumption. I'm referring to "this area" as in the very near area as in which blocks/street walls it is touching. I don't know what midtown has to do with this area. Film row is developing, but is it developing in to a area that will increase street life & activity? I'm not seeing it right now with the establishments that have already moved in & renovated the area.

[Just the facts]

No doubt that the corner of Walker and Sheridan will be a ghost town after 6PM and on weekends. There will be no reason for anyone to be there.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't know if anyone was against re-opening California Ave or not, but I do know when myself and others raised that issue the usual suspects were on here defending the proposed design and accused us of hating development and growth - when all we wanted to do was make the growth better. Well now it is better so the only thing I can tell you is that it proved us right. Only Clayco could tell you who influenced them.



Moving the residential to front the park would justify the already premium price, not make it more expensive. This might shock some people, but premium priced residential won't work in any city if it over looks vacant industrial land, parking garages, or an adjacent office building. Those views are reserved for the lower price ranges. To me, the mere fact Clayco DIDN'T make it park-fronting is an indication that they aren't totally committed to it.



Because the alternative is higher subsidy low density sprawl and isn't sustainable from a tax and revenue perspective. What you and others think is free-market sprawl is subsidized 9 ways from Sunday. Sprawl as we know it today was created by the Federal government in 1948. If we would simply charge for a gallon of gasoline what the actual price to produce it is we wouldn't have to subsidize downtown residential because people wouldn't be able to afford anything else. Look at the outrage over increasing the gasoline tax by 12 cents, when really it should be increased by $6 to cover the actual costs.




That is why it is important to get things like 499 Sheridan and the Cox site right. There is no reason downtown could not be the premier shopping district in OKC. We just have to want to do it. The rest of the world has come up with innovative ways to park cars that don't require city block size parking garages. OKC is trying to apply 1980's technology to solve 2015 problems, and that is because we have a group of civic leaders trying to relive the fake glory of 1980 OKC. Here is a parking garage in Germany. How much better would this be than the parking garages we have seen proposed here.



Heck man - even this would be great around downtown OKC, and they could make them as tall as they need to be.



Put some of these in Auto Alley, Bricktown, at the Civic Center, etc...

I like those parking garages. Wish they would build some here.

[OkieNate]

No doubt that the corner of Walker and Sheridan will be a ghost town after 6PM and on weekends. There will be no reason for anyone to be there.

You must either not have any kids or you were home schooled, if you think there will never be activity at the elementary school occasionally after normal school hours are over. Or you must not realize how close these will be to the arena. Why do you feel it to be so necessary to be a negative debie downer. You love to make up problems and stir the pot but you have no solutions or answer. (realistic answer, you're the only one who wants OKC to resemble Gaza City.) Bchris has even toned it down and his opinions and suggestions have gone from over bearing obnoxious OKC slander to interesting and informative. You turn off people to your ideas with such diarrhea of the keyboard.