BOK Park Plaza

[Pete]

It looks as if they are reserving 3,900 sq ft for restaurant space on the east end of the block within 499. The bus station retail only has 2,600 listed.

RePUBlic was interested because of the opportunity the bus station represented, not because of the location.

After the decision was made to build new, they withdrew their interest.

[OKCinsomniac]

Agree. That's likely all the retail/restaurants we'll get here. Again, to support retail or nighttime restaurants you have to have foot traffic. Everyone walking here will be walking to their cars. It will look just like the rest of the CBD at night. Empty.

Aren't there two new residential towers going up in the block across the street?

[CaptDave]

Aren't there two new residential towers going up in the block across the street?

Maybe, but maybe not. Bets were hedged yesterday......

[Pete]

BTW, lost in all the demolition talk yesterday, the rep from Hines told the DDRC "we will not be seeking public assistance for the garages".

Note that they did not say "for this project", which leads me to believe they may in fact seek tax dollars for the office building.


If they come back and ask for that later, this will be the second time someone has played the investment / economic development card to gave demolition approval, then later came back and claimed the new construction they had originally proposed requires public subsidy. The first time was Clayco/OG&E/Stage Center.

[bchris02]

BTW, lost in all the demolition talk yesterday, the rep from Hines told the DDRC "we will not be seeking public assistance for the garages".

Note that they did not say "for this project", which leads me to believe they may in fact seek tax dollars for the office building.


If they come back and ask for that later, this will be the second time someone has played the investment / economic development card to gave demolition approval, then later came back and claimed the new construction they had originally proposed requires public subsidy. The first time was Clayco/OG&E/Stage Center.

This is one more reason demolition should be tied to building permit. All of that should be ironed out BEFORE demolition. Bait and switch has been a problem in this city for a long, long time.

[Spartan]

Tisk, tisk... God forbid that someone presents an alternate opinion to the urbanista's that dominate this forum but represent a small minority in the metro...

The most prolific posters on this forum don't even live here. You could read the post's on this forum and think that it's representative of how our citizens thing and feel but you'd be very wrong...

Actually, in your desperate effort to discount the posters that do live in OKC proper, you've neglected to consider how many people live in Edmond or Moore and thus shouldn't have a say, either.

[BDP]

So glad we don't have to have something like this getting in the way of our parking garages:

The Grey Is Now Open in Savannah's Old Greyhound Bus Terminal - Eater Atlanta

What a waste!

[bchris02]

Something like that would be a truly unique and unexpected experience in OKC for visitors and residents alike. It's a shame the powers that be here aren't more forward thinking. The bus station is really the only thing on that block that I really care to see saved. The Hotel Black and Motor Hotel aren't anything too special but the bus station has so much potential to be something cool and unexpected. Like Stage Center and the Bricktown Flyer however, unique and unexpected isn't something that works in OKC.

[Village]

The saddest thing is how EASILY they could've incorporated at least some of the motor hotel or the hotel black (like this)
And how expensive would the bus station have been to actually move/renovate? (Was there ever any possibility of it being moved/renovated besides the pub)

[betts]

Think about where people want to hang out these days. Auto Alley, Midtown, 23rd St., the Plaza District are booming. Kitchen 324 is in a renovated building. Maybe we need to not worry about restaurant and retail space in these new buildings because what appeal will they have anyway? Who will want to go to a second floor restaurant when you can hang out on a street side patio at one of these great old buildings? How many people would rather go to Vast than Broadway 10? Would you rather go to the bar at the Aloft or the O bar. Old buildings have a unique appeal. When you go through our CBD and really look, it is actually quite shocking to see how much of the available land and how many buildings are dedicated to parking. I'm not sure there was much hope for that area anyway, once I really look at it.

[catch22]

Think about where people want to hang out these days. Auto Alley, Midtown, 23rd St., the Plaza District are booming. Kitchen 324 is in a renovated building. Maybe we need to not worry about restaurant and retail space in these new buildings because what appeal will they have anyway? Who will want to go to a second floor restaurant when you can hang out on a street side patio at one of these great old buildings? How many people would rather go to Vast than Broadway 10? Would you rather go to the bar at the Aloft or the O bar. Old buildings have a unique appeal. When you go through our CBD and really look, it is actually quite shocking to see how much of the available land and how many buildings are dedicated to parking. I'm not sure there was much hope for that area anyway, once I really look at it.

Precisely. If this how these guys want to build their utopia, I've given up. Let them build their ideal urban environment full of parking garages, inactive storefront windows, sky bridges and tunnels, and token retail.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will actually experience urban environments that the small and medium sized investors are making in real districts.

[BoulderSooner]

None of those districts woud exist with out the strong CBD that we have

[Tigerguy]

Think about where people want to hang out these days. Auto Alley, Midtown, 23rd St., the Plaza District are booming. Kitchen 324 is in a renovated building. Maybe we need to not worry about restaurant and retail space in these new buildings because what appeal will they have anyway? Who will want to go to a second floor restaurant when you can hang out on a street side patio at one of these great old buildings? How many people would rather go to Vast than Broadway 10? Would you rather go to the bar at the Aloft or the O bar. Old buildings have a unique appeal. When you go through our CBD and really look, it is actually quite shocking to see how much of the available land and how many buildings are dedicated to parking. I'm not sure there was much hope for that area anyway, once I really look at it.

I wouldn't go quite so far to say that. Though the Braniff Building is nice, that's not why I go to Kitchen 324. I go there because it's a good restaurant. If they were somehow convinced to pack up and move to 499 Sheridan, I wouldn't stay away because of any shortcomings the building may have. If they put something in there that I like, I'll make a point of it to stop by.

[s00nr1]

None of those districts woud exist with out the strong CBD that we have

This post was good for a nice laugh. Pure troll.

[SouthsideSooner]

Actually, in your desperate effort to discount the posters that do live in OKC proper, you've neglected to consider how many people live in Edmond or Moore and thus shouldn't have a say, either.

There's nothing desperate about stating the obvious and your post is pretty weak.

Downtown is for all of us living in the metro, all 1.3 million of us... The ones that voted in the MAPS projects, paid the sales taxes, have used our disposable dollars supporting everything downtown as it's developed, provide the work force and many of who will become residents...but the majority of us have no desire to live downtown and never will...

We love our city and its suburban lifestyle and really don't ask for much... an easy commute when we come in to work and play and a good place to park when we get there.

Over a million square feet of new class A office space and plentiful parking in a great spot along the new streetcar route trumps the loss of the Stage Center and the buildings on this block for suburbanists...but it will be for urbanists as well. These developments will be a great benefit to every district surrounding the CBD where retail and residential make much more sense and are well on their way.

[kevinpate]

Kitchen 324, if operated by tuck, could move into some old building on S Shields and they'd still be good eating. Sure, the view is nice where they are. But if the food and service were horrid, it's not such a view, nor such a building, that I'd bother to return.

[soondoc]

As usual, excellent take on this from Steve... Fair and balanced

Panda, you may only be 21 years young, but you are wise beyond your years. I'd say you are by far one of the most passionate posters on here and put a lot of energy into your posts. You also have some great ideas and the city of OKC needs more people like to to express their goals and desires for the direction this city wants to go. I am more outspoken to a fault no doubt and then go negative on OKC out of frustration but share the same goals.

Wish you the best out in LA. I'd check out the Redondo/Hermosa Beach areas. You will love it there, it almost feels like a small beach community in a strange kind of way. Great weather, ocean air, palm trees, and lots of cougars for you! Be sure and check out Sharkeez there, you will love it. Hope you keep up with OKC on here and don't be a stranger. Also, if you make it big, come back and film a movie here! Wish you the best, you will love it and probably won't ever come back. As much as I love OKC, I realize their are just much better places out there that offer so much more. Maybe someday that will change but we can always keep dreaming. It is a much better place than it was and in some ways heading the right direction.

[soondoc]

You know, I'm only 21 and I have a lot to learn in life, but some of the things said on this forum just make my jaw drop. It is absolutely incredible the disconnect and separation from reality that occurs. I think when a certain group of people that are like minded spend too much time around each, they start to believe things are changing towards their wants and desires because they around others that think like them but they fail to realize they are in the minority. I have seen on this website where people say we are in the minority, but do they actually believe that on a subconscious level or are they just saying that to try and tell themselves they are being reasonable.

I understand I am not going to get the kind of highways I desire here and I'm fine with that. I believe we could have better interchanges and road networks without widening one single road or highway and traffic would flow faster and smoother; I also think that is realistic, but no one has the courage to take it on.

I mean I am literally in a state of disbelief at what I read from Betts post for many reasons, the main one being that she seriously went and used China as an example saying look at their air pollution because they no bikes and it's caused by them abandoning cars. Let's just say hypothetically that she was right: what the f#ck does that have to do with us here in OKC, a metro of 1.4 million people sprawled out over 1,000 sqaure miles with a low density--the complete opposite of Chinese cities--removing a bike that I've literally only seen used 3 times and adding a car lane to that particular piece of pavement????? I mean WOW!

Many on here bash Dallas for having large highway, yet look at the massive growth in Dallas. Then we say that highways prevent good growth, lower property values, etc. yet look at property values along 635. Look at property values in Edmond along I-35 than look at them 3 miles from I-35; same thing with a lot of highways. Why is that we claim induced demand always works and use bs examples of adding one lane to already extremely congested highway like the 405(L.A.) that isn't induced demand, it's just common sense. What about Kilpatrick? Why isn't that bumper to bumper every morning and evening like it was sometimes? Now that rarely happens. Same thing with the new Crosstown... Someone tell me that if widened I-35 from downtown OKC to Norman to 12 lanes, 10 lanes plus an HOV lane(each way) that induced demand would kick in and the highway would be bumper to bumper again. You can't. Know why? Because if a couple billion were spent widening that highway to 12 lanes with good quality cement, light-rail down the center connecting to downtown Norman, commuter rail, and a BRT route, you wouldn't have to touch that highway for another 30-50 years. It would entirely solve the problem. It would impress people driving along the highway. New artwork and landscaping would be installed. New development would spur. But oohhhh no that will never happen and would be horrible if it did and blah blah blah....

Why does Europe, a place that a lot of people like to use for good development, and a lot of their countries have huge debt, high-unemployment, and some countries high poverty? I though urbanism was supposed to prevent most of that stuff? Why does Japan, an extremely urbanized country, have one of the highest suicide rates with their lack of disconnected suburban neighborhoods, I mean subdivisions, and cul-de-sacs? Sure, there are some suburbs that are dilated, but if anyone here wants to play ball, show me a suburb like Del City or something that is run down and I'll show you an urban city that over-run with crime and poverty worse than you could ever imagine.

None of this sh!t makes any sense and we have people on here like Sid and Cautromayo that saying they are glad they don't live here because of that but did they fly down here at all and protest or do something to help? Probably not. I'm sure their excuse if they see and respond to this will be 'it wouldn't have done any good.' Just like to all the people that didn't vote against Marry Fallin because she was going to win anyways. The people in this city work for us. Not the other way around. We have the power to kick their asses out if they don't meet our standards and if our council members aren't doing what they're supposed to be and our city is over-run by engineers who only care about fast moving traffic and new construction, then kick the council person or whoever elected them out of office, let them know why they were relieved of their duties, and put a new on in there that supports your beliefs. Spread the word. Campaign. Send letters. Start and advocacy group. Don't just sit on a talk forum with a bunch of other people like you and talk about how the council person(s) are too out of touch.

OKC has amazing potential and while I'm not overjoyed when this building could have been taller(putting the parking garages underneath and floors 3-10), had a better site plan(see KanyeMo's drawing), existing buildings preserved, renovated, and put to use again... but who did anything? We had a preservation group that seems like they were pussies and didn't do anything. We had a company who made their employees feel uncomfortable so they would sign the supporting petition. What the hell did we do besides sign some online petition that probably less than 0.01% of the city new about? Same thing with the Stage Center. We had an awesome piece of art that was torn down and now it might have been for nothing. Did anyone actually go out and stand around it holding a sign trying to save it? Did anyone organize a group? Did anyone chain themselves to it, getting arrested and ending up in the news spreading awareness that it is getting demo'd? What? Is that too crazy? It happens in other cities all the time. Did anyone go door to door handing out pamphlets and trying to explain to people the value and rareness the Stage Center is?

I mean what is your vision of the city? Do anyone ever see me bitching about the lack of Houston like highways in London or NYC? No. Because I like Houston and Dallas because of that. OKC is a car oriented city. The car was developed after the street car and bicycle as faster, more personal, and more efficient form of transportation. While highways might be more costly to build and maintain, that argument is quickly going to become irrelevant soon. Even when I joined, a big argument here was the high gas prices was going to make mass transit more attractive, but the recent news in the gas mileage of cars has quickly put that to rest. With sub-compacts getting 50-70MPG to trucks SUV'S getting 20-30MPG(and rising), better economy, new car ownership is now again rising. This sudden fascination with small urban areas and districts like the Plaza with Millennials is smelling more and more like a fad. I don't think it will go away, but I do suspect we will see a lot of Millennials start moving into the burbs. It has already happened from several people I know.

America is not special in sprawl. The only difference between our sprawl and sprawl in Europe is ours usually has parking in front of the buildings. Europe has it in back. Now, Europe's sprawl is more walkable, yes, but what kind of moron would move outside to the outskirts of city and complain about not being able to walk everywhere? Here in the US, we're just one of the first countries it seems to actually fund large highways giving people the additional option of living out in the green suburbs with 6 lane roads, strip malls, nicer schools, 10 lane highways, etc... which I like. Then we have these groups popping up like weeds complaining about too many highways in a city Dallas that is thriving and the question bears, why not move to a city like San Francisco or NYC if you want good urbanism? Oh, your job is located in Dallas and you can't get a good paying job in the type of city you seem to desire, well that is just downright ironic.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but some of the stuff I hear on here makes no sense to me. I'm moving to L.A. on May 21st to pursue a career in acting, so I'm going to get to experience a different city. I'm going to take a break for awhile as it seems my latest posts are getting on people's nerves, but we need to start stepping up here in OKC or nothing is going to get accomplished. I just hear a lot of talk on this site about needing to do stuff(kind of hypocritical I know) and how bad this is, but I never really see anything and I'm downtown a lot and looking at the news everyday. I never see anything progressive activism like what you hear about in cities like Austin and Portland. We had Friends for a Better Boulevard(which I don't think made one difference in fact made things worse because we are essentially getting the same road, just one less lane and a mile of bike lanes in front of the CC and Park, and a lower speed limit. That will do absolutely nothing for the walkability of the area. It's still a boulevard designed to move a car from point a to point b very quickly and reducing it from 6 to 4 lanes, adding a bike lane a part of it, and even reducing the speed limit doesn't change a thing. At the end of the day, it is still a road designed to move people from point a to point b very fast) and a couple other small projects, but nothing really that will make an impact on a large scale. I'm not trying to dog on the site or the people here, but just the people around the city in general don't seem to do too much about some of these issues.

That is my 2 cents on a lot things and again, if you are offended, sorry, but that's the way I see it currently.

Oops, replied to the wrong poster on my last post.


Panda, you may only be 21 years young, but you are wise beyond your years. I'd say you are by far one of the most passionate posters on here and put a lot of energy into your posts. You also have some great ideas and the city of OKC needs more people like to to express their goals and desires for the direction this city wants to go. I am more outspoken to a fault no doubt and then go negative on OKC out of frustration but share the same goals.

Wish you the best out in LA. I'd check out the Redondo/Hermosa Beach areas. You will love it there, it almost feels like a small beach community in a strange kind of way. Great weather, ocean air, palm trees, and lots of cougars for you! Be sure and check out Sharkeez there, you will love it. Hope you keep up with OKC on here and don't be a stranger. Also, if you make it big, come back and film a movie here! Wish you the best, you will love it and probably won't ever come back. As much as I love OKC, I realize their are just much better places out there that offer so much more. Maybe someday that will change but we can always keep dreaming. It is a much better place than it was and in some ways heading the right direction

[bchris02]

There's nothing desperate about stating the obvious and your post is pretty weak.

Downtown is for all of us living in the metro, all 1.3 million of us... The ones that voted in the MAPS projects, paid the sales taxes, have used our disposable dollars supporting everything downtown as it's developed, provide the work force and many of who will become residents...but the majority of us have no desire to live downtown and never will...

We love our city and its suburban lifestyle and really don't ask for much... an easy commute when we come in to work and play and a good place to park when we get there.

Over a million square feet of new class A office space and plentiful parking in a great spot along the new streetcar route trumps the loss of the Stage Center and the buildings on this block for suburbanists...but it will be for urbanists as well. These developments will be a great benefit to every district surrounding the CBD where retail and residential make much more sense and are well on their way.

Great post.

I agree that downtown OKC is for the entire metro and at this point in OKC's development, its suburban residents who are supporting all these downtown businesses and creating the vibrant, up and coming districts that people love. I fully support urban living and people who prefer that lifestyle but also realize that adequate parking and other amenities aimed at suburbanites are necessary for a thriving downtown. Any effort to create an urban vs suburban rivalry is an effort to undermine the progress that OKC has made.

[bchris02]

These peripheral neighborhoods are definitely the core strength of OKC at the moment. Without them, OKC would be in a serious world of hurt, especially in the face of declining energy prices.

I believe that the primary centers of activity for OKC will always be on the peripheral and not right in the CBD itself. That is simply how this city has developed and there isn't anything wrong with that.

[Motley]

I don't know the statistics for most cities, but a lot of the recent office space development in Dallas, the bay area, and San Diego has been suburban. Many larger corporations prefer to have campus facilities. I give Devon credit for choosing downtown OKC. They certainly could have built a facility outside the core. SF is seeing increasingly reverse commutes with employees heading down to Palo Alto/Cupertino/Sunnyvale, which have large business office developments going on. Much of the pharma and biotech in San Diego continue to develop in the mid-town area and Carmel Valley. The recent relocations in Dallas has been north of LBJ and American Airlines is looking at the old Texas Stadium site for a corporate campus. All these cities continue to see downtown growing too, but the suburban areas are outstripping them in growth.

[betts]

Kitchen 324, if operated by tuck, could move into some old building on S Shields and they'd still be good eating. Sure, the view is nice where they are. But if the food and service were horrid, it's not such a view, nor such a building, that I'd bother to return.

But if it were on the second floor of a parking garage in the CBD, would you be as likely to go? My point is that I think the reason downtowns that are all parking garage and new buildings are off putting. Couple that with absent foot traffic in the evenings, and I suspect it's less appealing to people. That's probably why a lot of CBDs are empty at night. We're just extending the empty space in our downtown with these parking garages and my point was that a restaurant like RePubLic is probably wise enough to locate in a district with older, smaller buildings with space on the first floor and foot traffic. A second floor garage is probably the place to put a Bonefish Grill or some national chain people who work downtown are drawn to.

[kevinpate]

betts, as I live in Norman, when I eat at K324 it is because I want to enjoy what they prepare and their level of service. Not many breakfast places even try to come close. So yes, if they relocated elsewhere for some reason, I'd follow when I want a relaxing and tasty breakfast. Unless they shifted up north several miles. I just rarely ever venture north of 23rd or 36th anymore, and often not that far.

[AP]

I'm sorry, I have to agree with betts on this one. That building provides an incredible ambiance to boost the experience. Put that same breakfast in any other place and it just wouldn't be as good.

[BDP]

Think about where people want to hang out these days. Auto Alley, Midtown, 23rd St., the Plaza District are booming. Kitchen 324 is in a renovated building. Maybe we need to not worry about restaurant and retail space in these new buildings because what appeal will they have anyway? Who will want to go to a second floor restaurant when you can hang out on a street side patio at one of these great old buildings? How many people would rather go to Vast than Broadway 10? Would you rather go to the bar at the Aloft or the O bar. Old buildings have a unique appeal. When you go through our CBD and really look, it is actually quite shocking to see how much of the available land and how many buildings are dedicated to parking. I'm not sure there was much hope for that area anyway, once I really look at it.

Ultimately, yes we can't worry about it, but I think it's good to point out what opportunities are being missed to encourage better development going forward. The advocates for 499, as it is now, have basically admitted that they are departing from Oklahoma City's proven successful development strategies when they pointed them out on a post card and then asked everyone to support that they do the opposite. It was quite the Jedi mind trick and it seems to have worked. lol.

However, there is a bigger concern. These developers and the people behind them have an influence that extends beyond their sandbox, one that has potential to undermine the public and private investments made in these districts that have begun to create a new urban center for Oklahoma City. The most high profile examples is obviously Nichols's oppositions to aspects of the streetcar. We have concrete examples of how they think urban areas should be developed, and basically they are 30 year old ideas (at least) and depart completely from the strategies of development that have facilitated a true urban renaissance in countless cities across the country and from which we are beginning to see similar success in Oklahoma City. We can write off the west side of the CBD as a 24 hour urban district, but the minds behind that are actively working against public investment in other districts that have shown the possibility of actually bringing the new urban environment to Oklahoma City. So, really, the question going forward is how do we keep that influence from working against the implementation of good urban development in the districts that have had already seen a great deal of success and rejuvenation because of those strategies?