BOK Park Plaza

[ChrisHayes]

Part of me would like to have seen the two hotel buildings preserved and integrated into the new complex and am somewhat disappointed that they won't be. However, I'm looking forward to the new development going up along with the OG&E center. Hopefully with oil prices eventually recovering, the rest of the complex will be built in a shorter time frame. I don't understand how the loss of a few buildings could cause some people to want to leave the city or not come back to it. There's so much more going on in the city for the good, that overpowers this loss. The city is over 600 square miles. Much larger than a block. I'm a fairly newcomer to the city and still love the city and don't plan on leaving anytime soon. It still beats where I came from by 1000 times.

[BoulderSooner]

Great post

[Urban Pioneer]

Regarding Millennials, someone tweeted about there being a paternalistic streak with the leadership of this city.

"Dan ‏@DanForPrez 20m20 minutes ago @OKCTalk It's probably more of a paternalistic valuing more than a meaningful valuing of millenials and their interests"

So often true. And not just with some of the leadership in the city (DDRC a great example), but also the major employers.

But let's be honest here, this is about a small group of people who have a different set of 'values' who have the money to see their vision through. Their vision revolves around lots of parking, cars, and weather protection. They happen to own the land and they happen to have the money. Not a conspiracy just dismaying that their values are so different.

[Anonymous.]

Part of me would like to have seen the two hotel buildings preserved and integrated into the new complex and am somewhat disappointed that they won't be. However, I'm looking forward to the new development going up along with the OG&E center. Hopefully with oil prices eventually recovering, the rest of the complex will be built in a shorter time frame. I don't understand how the loss of a few buildings could cause some people to want to leave the city or not come back to it. There's so much more going on in the city for the good, that overpowers this loss. The city is over 600 square miles. Much larger than a block. I'm a fairly newcomer to the city and still love the city and don't plan on leaving anytime soon. It still beats where I came from by 1000 times.

It isn't about this one block. It is about the decision process being so awful and being easily persuaded by talking heads in the community. OKC has a chance to do things correctly and meet new urbanism standards - and just when things are looking promising - garbage like this gets approved with little-to-zero official opposition.

[CaptDave]

The city is over 600 square miles.

For the population and tax base, that is unsustainable and the reason we need to seriously reconsider last century's development methods. It is one of the primary reasons I think we need to make downtown a more complete city. It has improved quite a bit since I moved here but still could be much better. The potential of this project to be part of rebuilding downtown into one with a better balance of commercial, retail, and residential is squandered by taking the lazy way out and letting a very narrow interest dictate the development. Taking into account property ownership rights, this project could be much better than it is going to be. There could have been a couple modifications that would have combined the best of old and new and extended a sustainable urban vibrancy westward. Suburbia will not be going away anytime soon, but it really doesn't pay its way long term.

The Growth Ponzi Scheme ? Strong Towns

Mayor Cornett said it best and I paraphrase, "What's the use of being a suburb of nothing?". It seems we haven't quite grasped that yet.

[OkieNate]

It isn't about this one block. It is about the decision process being so awful and being easily persuaded by talking heads in the community. OKC has a chance to do things correctly and meet new urbanism standards - and just when things are looking promising - garbage like this gets approved with little-to-zero official opposition.

This kind of answers my question on are people really THIS upset over one block OR is it the way it all happened ever since Preflakes started buying the properties. Seems to be more of the later with the former not easing anything.

[BoulderSooner]

Regarding Millennials, someone tweeted about there being a paternalistic streak with the leadership of this city.

"Dan ‏@DanForPrez 20m20 minutes ago @OKCTalk It's probably more of a paternalistic valuing more than a meaningful valuing of millenials and their interests"

So often true. And not just with some of the leadership in the city (DDRC a great example), but also the major employers.

But let's be honest here, this is about a small group of people who have a different set of 'values' who have the money to see their vision through. Their vision revolves around lots of parking, cars, and weather protection. They happen to own the land and they happen to have the money. Not a conspiracy just dismaying that their values are so different.

Parking and cars are the reality of having a large business in downtown OkC. And that is not changing anytime soon. That is the reality. Of the situation.

And the group of people is not nearly as small as you might think

[bchris02]

Part of me would like to have seen the two hotel buildings preserved and integrated into the new complex and am somewhat disappointed that they won't be. However, I'm looking forward to the new development going up along with the OG&E center. Hopefully with oil prices eventually recovering, the rest of the complex will be built in a shorter time frame. I don't understand how the loss of a few buildings could cause some people to want to leave the city or not come back to it. There's so much more going on in the city for the good, that overpowers this loss. The city is over 600 square miles. Much larger than a block. I'm a fairly newcomer to the city and still love the city and don't plan on leaving anytime soon. It still beats where I came from by 1000 times.

If you don't mind me asking where did you move from?

I also concur that I don't understand why this decision would influence somebody to leave the city or to not return. This is the way things have always been done here; it's nothing new.

[PhiAlpha]

Why don't people under 30 have more of an influence on stuff like this? Because besides this site, younger people were more mobilized and vocal over the idea that yet another bar wouldn't be able to open on 23rd than they were about significant destruction and demolition of downtown OKC. You wouldn't see something like this trending on twitter or facebook, or in an article on the lost ogle.

For people that don't read OKC talk and just ready Steve's news article, a Church meaning no more bars on 23rd seemed like a likely outcome. If they believed that based on reading that article, they have a right to be pissed about it. I'm glad the pastor set the record straight in the gazette.

Also there is a difference between young people getting pissed about something on facebook and participating in discussions on a design or planning committee. Your comparison is apples to oranges.

[modernism]

Glad to see the demo approved for all buildings. It's great that the City of Oklahoma City is being progressive, and has the willingness to move forward. There is a time and place for everything. Those buildings served Oklahoma City well for their time, but there is always an end. Bring on the shiny new towers.

[CaptDave]

Glad to see the demo approved for all buildings. It's great that the City of Oklahoma City is being progressive, and has the willingness to move forward. There is a time and place for everything. Those buildings served Oklahoma City well for their time, but there is always an end. Bring on the shiny new towers.

Tower - no 's'. And parking garage induced dead space.

[BoulderSooner]

Am I missing something? Why does Walker need to be 4 lanes?!

It doesn't. And hopfully enough will speak out against it so it isn't

[jerrywall]

Your comparison is apples to oranges.

I don't agree. I saw posting after post of people claiming they were calling the city to complain about the church, calling the church, threatening protests, etc. They were much more mobilized over a bar than they were over this. And that's nothing new.

[CaptDave]

It doesn't. And hopfully enough will speak out against it so it isn't

There will be another petition circulated among Devon and BOK employees to demand it though.

[PhiAlpha]

It isn't about this one block. It is about the decision process being so awful and being easily persuaded by talking heads in the community. OKC has a chance to do things correctly and meet new urbanism standards - and just when things are looking promising - garbage like this gets approved with little-to-zero official opposition.

I understand your frustration with the process but the other poster is correct. They got one block in the CBD wrong, but many more things are going right in the urban districts outside the CBD. To say that this decision is a reason to move away or not move back, when taking into consideration all the good developments that have come over the last few years, is way extreme. To each his own, but I wouldn't make my decision to move based on one city decision.

[CaptDave]

I understand your frustration with the process but the other poster is correct. They got one block in the CBD wrong, but many more things are going right in the urban districts outside the CBD. To say that this decision is a reason to move away or not move back, when taking into consideration all the good developments that have come over the last few years, is way extreme. To each his own, but I wouldn't make my decision to move based on one city decision.

The nuts in the building at 23rd & Lincoln are more of a reason to move than this even though I am disappointed by the outcome.

[PhiAlpha]

I don't agree. I saw posting after post of people claiming they were calling the city to complain about the church, calling the church, threatening protests, etc. They were much more mobilized over a bar than they were over this. And that's nothing new.

Again, how is a handful of people freaking out on the Internet any comparison to having a few qualified younger people on committees in the city?

[BoulderSooner]

There will be another petition circulated among Devon and BOK employees to demand it though.

That was to build on private property. Changes to streets is a totally different matter

[Urban Pioneer]

Parking and cars are the reality of having a large business in downtown OkC. And that is not changing anytime soon. That is the reality. Of the situation.

And the group of people is not nearly as small as you might think

I don't disagree. Where I personally have a problem with it is that there seems to be a complete disregard for the impact that the streetcar will have on the location of parking garages. Regardless of this debate regarding the history of the buildings, we should have a legitimate land use debate.

The streetcar is rarely, if ever, been even discussed by a developers as a mechanism to place garages further away or as a way to distribute the load. Very disappointing. It was pointed out to me today that it wasn't even in the renderings for any of these projects.

Regarding Devon and the other tenants... pretty simple. They are a huge economic engine that creates lots of cash in our broader economy and that is enabling preservation and business creation in other parts of the city. There are a ton of historic buildings that would not otherwise be restored and renovated if our economy wasn't doing so well. Quite frankly, that broad cash flow is helping Millennials in many parts of the city employ place making practices, preservation, and better land use.

It's just a shame that values seem so different between groups and that there isn't more pliability. The bike lanes being removed was a pretty poignant signal to a lot of people regardless of the rest of it.

[jerrywall]

Again, how is a handful of people freaking out on the Internet any comparison to having a few qualified younger people on committees in the city?

Because the majority of young people in the city aren't interested or invested in having their voice heard on projects like this.

[CaptDave]

That was to build on private property. Changes to streets is a totally different matter

Devon doesn't "own" this property either so it really isn't that much different.

[KayneMo]

How profoundly disappointing. Integration into the existing context of these perfectly fine buildings could've made this a very cool project and could have been a lively area.

How does the appeal process go about?

[Just the facts]

I also concur that I don't understand why this decision would influence somebody to leave the city or to not return. This is the way things have always been done here; it's nothing new.

Because the ramification is much larger than this one decision. There was a hope among many that OKC had decided to embrace the future of the American city, but it turns out they decided to embrace 1986 instead. This might surprise some, but a lot of people are not interested in living in a 2015 version of 1986.

[Pete]

Out of curiosity, I researched the ages of the Downtown Design Review Committee:

Betsy Brunsteter, 57
Gigi Faulkner, 57
Chuck Ainsworth, 67
Ike Akinwande, 31
Connie Scothorn, 59
Richard Tanenbaum, 68

Average age is 56.5; all but one are over 57.

[jerrywall]

I was curious on the criteria for the members of the committee...

Three (3) members shall be a combination of registered architects, landscape
architects, urban planners or licensed civil engineers, all with
demonstrated knowledge of urban design principles. Two (2) members
shall be licensed real estate professionals. One (1) member shall be a
member of the Urban Design Commission. One (1) member shall be a
resident citizen of the City of Oklahoma City.

It seems like the only position that would likely be able to be filled by someone younger would be the real estate professionals or the resident citizen position (depending on how they judge "demonstrated knowledge of urban design principles").