OG&E Energy Center

[TU 'cane]

I think someone said in the 499 Sheridan thread that Clayco is already considering scaling back in terms of timing the development of the other two towers on the South end of the block due to the fall in oil prices.

[bchris02]

I think someone said in the 499 Sheridan thread that Clayco is already considering scaling back in terms of timing the development of the other two towers on the South end of the block due to the fall in oil prices.

So the north block is still a go but the south block is now in question?

[TU 'cane]

So the north block is still a go but the south block is now in question?

From what I read, that's correct.
Here it is:

Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
Looks like Ben Felder is live tweeting from it again.

https://twitter.com/benfelder_okg for those that are interested in following along.

Edit: Looks like Steve is as well: https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer
From Ben:
Clayco presenting to committee on its OG Energy Plaza. Has already said lower oil prices will impact timing of some construction.

[jccouger]

So the north block is still a go but the south block is now in question?

Steve Lackmeyer posted a quote on twitter that with the decline in oil prices that the north residential tower had now been pushed back on the timeline. Won't be long before it is totally cut out IMO.

[TU 'cane]

Steve Lackmeyer posted a quote on twitter that with the decline in oil prices that the north residential tower had now been pushed back on the timeline. Won't be long before it is totally cut out IMO.

That would be extremely unfortunate... Shall we even begin to ponder what happens if they scrap 50% or even 75% of the proposal (which it sounds like they are starting to)? "Scrap" may be too strong here, I guess they're just delaying right now.

They've got to try and make the North end work more than anything, or at least the two towers facing Myriad.

[Pete]

The Clayco financials have always been slight, which is why they are seeking so much in public assistance.

Keep in mind that an agreement finalized with OCURA for the south parcel (it's still being negotiated) will be tied to certain timelines and expectations. Ownership only transfers when key milestones are met.

However, they could tie up the property for years, as was the case with the old Mercy hospital site before finally being pulled back from the original developer who could not perform, then awarded to Gary Brooks for the Edge.

[jccouger]

Clayco originally planned to start construction on OGE, north apt tower by this summer. Now. just OGE tower.

Clayco is presenting plans this morning at Downtown Design Review Committee. Outtake: timeline for apt tower now uncertain due to oil prices

I have spoken to four different developers who are reevaluating project timelines & whether to proceed in light of oil price dropping.

Interesting. Larry Chapman, Clayco, saying design is well underway for the north apt tower. Just 2 mos behind OGE design work...

Seems contradictory. Who would have ever guessed we'd be misled?

[Pete]

^

I'm sure they know that any hope of getting big incentives is tied into the residential piece.

Otherwise, it's just a new HQ for OG&E.

[OkieNate]

^

I'm sure they know that any hope of getting big incentives is tied into the residential piece.

Otherwise, it's just a new HQ for OG&E.

So, there is a very serious possibility only the OG&E HQ is a go for the foreseeable future?

[adaniel]

This is slightly related to this discussion. I have a college friend who's big in development in Houston. Says developments that are even somewhat spec in nature are not getting cancelled per say but delayed at least 6-9 months across the board. If oil prices haven't improved by then, he believes they will start getting cancelled en masse.

[TU 'cane]

This is slightly related to this discussion. I have a college friend who's big in development in Houston. Says developments that are even somewhat spec in nature are not getting cancelled per say but delayed at least 6-9 months across the board. If oil prices haven't improved by then, he believes they will start getting cancelled en masse.

Makes sense. Every forecast I've read so far is putting oil back to $60-$70 a barrel in about... you guessed it, 6-9 months.

[OkiePoke]

Not sure on this, but building simultaneously is probably more expensive than just one tower at a time. Delaying would feel the market and lower costs.

[Motley]

The residential space in these towers is at a high price point for OKC, so it's always been somewhat speculative of what the market will bear. With the leading industry in the city is going through a rough patch, it makes sense for a developer to make sure the project is still viable.

[soondoc]

The joke continues for OKC. I had a feeling about these mid rises a while back. We now have leveled a historical structure and we may end up with a mid rise- wow. A block over, more buildings leveled for some parking garages and another mid rise. OKC is OK- that is it. I give up, this is all this city will ever be I think. I think a move to Texas would be wise and in the near future. They do thing right there, build highways, and freeways the way they should be done, not like the ODOT scam. They have a mentality that OKC simply never will have, and that is sad. Enjoy the mediocrity OKC.

[Bellaboo]

The joke continues for OKC. I had a feeling about these mid rises a while back. We now have leveled a historical structure and we may end up with a mid rise- wow. A block over, more buildings leveled for some parking garages and another mid rise. OKC is OK- that is it. I give up, this is all this city will ever be I think. I think a move to Texas would be wise and in the near future. They do thing right there, build highways, and freeways the way they should be done, not like the ODOT scam. They have a mentality that OKC simply never will have, and that is sad. Enjoy the mediocrity OKC.

Go ahead and feel free to move to Texas. You might be very happy there.

[soonerguru]

I'm getting depressed as well. I've been proud of our leadership and sense of togetherness for many years. Now I am beginning to feel we have some arrogant bullies foisting their wishes on the city -- and going it alone.

There are people in high places who seem committed to reversing the urbanization we have been seeking.

This togetherness could unravel quickly, and if so, it could damage future initiatives such as the next MAPS. People are losing trust in the processes and realizing that us mere mortals have very little real influence over decisions we will have to live with for generations.

There are some people who need to get off their high horse and quit pushing people around. It's bad for the city and unbecoming.

I'll be eligible for AARP membership in a few years. I'm sick of waiting for people in this town to get it. I may decide to move elsewhere to experience the kind of life that clearly may never happen here.

[CaptDave]

^^ Understand completely. The problem OKC is going to eventually face is people that were here hoping to be part of a city's rebirth are going to become disillusioned by those behaviors you describe and vote with outbound U-Hauls. We've already lost two very well regarded members of this site that could have had a huge impact on OKC. Of course the "Oklahoma Standard" will kick in and the usual 'good riddance' or 'get out' attitude will be displayed toward those who consider leaving. Whatever, I couldn't care less about those people.

The fact is there are plenty of other better developed cities and towns, with more to do, in much nicer settings. It has been discussed many times that OKC doesn't have much going for it as far as natural beauty, but it is relatively inexpensive and seemed like a city coming back to life. The terrain is not particularly attractive and the way the city developed in decades past didn't help much. MAPS is beginning to address many of these issues, but MAPS may not survive thanks to the shenanigans of the people on their high horses. OKC's economy is not recession proof as some have tried to claim, it is just out of sync with other parts of the country and is more vulnerable because of its dependence on one industry despite efforts to diversify even though that industry did cushion the impact of the last recession. But look what is happening now with the drop in oil prices. This doesn't even include the earthquakes people are too afraid to say what causes them and the lack of a natural source of water for people living here. The cost of living in other places often balances out with OKC because of decreased dependence on a car, or multiple cars for families - even though housing may be more costly, getting rid of a car or two offsets a good chunk of that.

I'm not a millennial and I am not a native Okie. I stayed here after retiring because of what I thought OKC could, and was going to, be. The word 'iconic' has been overused to describe nearly everything in OKC recently but it seems like mediocre is what they really meant. Maybe that really is better because the old 'better than crappy makes us happy' was the standard for so long. But between the boulevard fiasco, convention center shenanigans, this development and 499 Sheridan, and the obvious arrogance of those pulling the strings - not to mention the lunacy in the state legislature - I'm not at all confident it is worth staying to see where the city goes. I can easily relocate to a place that is already what I hoped OKC would become and just enjoy living there instead of waiting for it to come to pass here.

Sure I am probably the minority because I have no ties to a job or specific industry, nor do I have family keeping me here and picking up and moving on is fairly easy for me. So in the big scheme of things a few people like me and others on this site leaving won't make or break OKC. The sky isn't falling of course, but I suppose I had such high hopes for OKC, some of the events over the last several months have been very disappointing. Oh well. Fire away.

[Just the facts]

I'm sick of waiting for people in this town to get it. I may decide to move elsewhere to experience the kind of life that clearly may never happen here.

While the rest of your post was great - this last part is the conclusion I have come to. There are simply too many other places around the world where I can swim with the current. One can only fight for change for so long before it just becomes easier to go where that change is happening on its own. Maybe we have been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole after all.

[bchris02]

^^ Understand completely. The problem OKC is going to eventually face is people that were here hoping to be part of a city's rebirth are going to become disillusioned by those behaviors you describe and vote with outbound U-Hauls. We've already lost two very well regarded members of this site that could have had a huge impact on OKC. Of course the "Oklahoma Standard" will kick in and the usual 'good riddance' or 'get out' attitude will be displayed toward those who consider leaving. Whatever, I couldn't care less about those people.

The fact is there are plenty of other better developed cities and towns, with more to do, in much nicer settings. It has been discussed many times that OKC doesn't have much going for it other than it being cheap and what seemed like a city coming back to life. The terrain is not particularly attractive and the way the city developed in decades past didn't help much. MAPS is beginning to address many of these issues, but MAPS may not survive thanks to the shenanigans of the people on their high horses. OKC's economy is not recession proof as some have tried to claim, it is just out of sync with other parts of the country and is more vulnerable because of its dependence on one industry despite efforts to diversify even though that industry did cushion the impact of the last recession. But look what is happening now with the drop in oil prices. This doesn't even include the earthquakes people are too afraid to say what causes them and the lack of a natural source of water for people living here. The cost of living in other places often balances out with OKC because of decreased dependence on a car, or multiple cars for families - even though housing may be more costly, getting rid of a car or two offsets a good chunk of that.

I'm not a millennial and I am not a native Okie. I stayed here after retiring because of what I thought OKC could, and was going to, be. The word 'iconic' has been overused to describe nearly everything in OKC recently but it seems like mediocre is what they really meant. Maybe that really is better because the old 'better than crappy makes us happy' was the standard for so long. But between the boulevard fiasco, convention center shenanigans, this development and 499 Sheridan, and the obvious arrogance of those pulling the strings - not to mention the lunacy in the state legislature - I'm not at all confident it is worth staying to see where the city goes. I can easily relocate to a place that is already what I hoped OKC would become and just enjoy living there instead of waiting for it to come to pass here.

Sure I am probably the minority because I have no ties to a job or specific industry, nor do I have family keeping me here and picking up and moving on is fairly easy for me. So in the big scheme of things a few people like me and others on this site leaving won't make or break OKC. Oh well. Fire away.

I completely understand where you are coming from. Having lived in a city that already was everything OKC will become in the next 20 years under the best possible scenario, its frustrating and depressing sometimes to see how the powers that be don't seem to understand it. I am excited about the possibilities for the future of OKC but many times I feel like I would be better of moving back to somewhere that already is everything I hope OKC one day becomes. I don't because of financial reasons and because of family and the fact that I prefer OKC over other places I could easily move. If I could easily move somewhere like Dallas or Denver though I would have a difficult time coming up with reasons not to do so. Many transplants I have talked to feel similar. A lot of people, as you said, will be quick to harshly say "good riddance" to anybody considering moving, but part of developing a growing, thriving city is not only attracting transplants but retaining them.

Despite the negativity, there is also a lot to be positive about. The development in OKC far outpaces most other cities its size. It's real easy to live a comfortable life here with the cost of living and the economic opportunities are really good. As long as that remains the case and entertainment amenities continue to increase, this city should do okay attracting young professionals. Most people aren't as passionate about new urbanism or historic preservation as people on OKCTalk. Despite the loss of the last historic block in the CBD, a tower is going up that most of OKC's true peers would love to have and will enhance the feel of the skyline downtown. An expansive, well-lit skyline is an asset and a lot of people will really enjoy the MBG in the shadow of the new towers. The standard of development here IS increasing. It may not yet be up to par with most other cities buts come a long way since the first MAPS.

What really needs to happen is that OKC needs to establish a vision for downtown and stick to that, not granting variances for anybody who wants them. Shed the "better than crappy makes us happy" approach to development and demand development worthy of a big league city. Use TIF money if necessary to help developers meet the standard (things like parking below the tower). If something can be done a certain way in cities like Louisville, Memphis, and Jacksonville, it can happen that way in OKC. The problem here is whatever the good ole' boy network wants happens and TIF money is used as a form of corporate welfare. Of course I am just one person on a message board and having lived in small towns that have had good ole' boy networks running everything, I am at a realization that there is little that can be done about it.

[soondoc]

While the rest of your post was great - this last part is the conclusion I have come to. There are simply too many other places around the world where I can swim with the current. One can only fight for change for so long before it just becomes easier to go where that change is happening on its own. Maybe we have been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole after all.

I can't believe I am saying this, but I actually agree with you. I am finally coming to the conclusion that this city will never be what I always hoped it would be. My gf lives in Ft. Worth and I am there a lot lately and love it. I see their DT and the history and new buildings and lots of street interaction, and it makes me look at OKC and say "if only". I think the next step would be for many of us on okctalk to start emailing the city council, and mayor and let them know exactly what has been stated on here. That we all had high hopes but realize it is a lost cause, we are tired of swimming upstream when we can live somewhere and go along with the current. They need to know that many people could be loading up outbound U-haul's because of reasons we have all been witnessing. In fact, I would like to see how many people would follow through with something like this? Perhaps it just might get their attention that people are frustrated and willing to leave here, and for those who live elsewhere and wanted to some back to OKC, they will choose not to.

[soondoc]

I'm getting depressed as well. I've been proud of our leadership and sense of togetherness for many years. Now I am beginning to feel we have some arrogant bullies foisting their wishes on the city -- and going it alone.

There are people in high places who seem committed to reversing the urbanization we have been seeking.

This togetherness could unravel quickly, and if so, it could damage future initiatives such as the next MAPS. People are losing trust in the processes and realizing that us mere mortals have very little real influence over decisions we will have to live with for generations.

There are some people who need to get off their high horse and quit pushing people around. It's bad for the city and unbecoming.

I'll be eligible for AARP membership in a few years. I'm sick of waiting for people in this town to get it. I may decide to move elsewhere to experience the kind of life that clearly may never happen here.

Great post by the way, I feel your frustration which I explained in my last post. As for Bellaboo, enjoy the mediocrity that is OKC. I just may like Texas much better, who knows. Sad deal is I am Okie proud and also have been. I have so much state pride, that it's almost not healthy. Truly love Oklahoma and OKC, but sometimes you just realize it is what it is.

[dankrutka]

Great post by the way, I feel your frustration which I explained in my last post. As for Bellaboo, enjoy the mediocrity that is OKC. I just may like Texas much better, who knows. Sad deal is I am Okie proud and also have been. I have so much state pride, that it's almost not healthy. Truly love Oklahoma and OKC, but sometimes you just realize it is what it is.

Okie proud? Lol. You're the most negative poster about OKC and Oklahoma on this board.

[Bellaboo]

Great post by the way, I feel your frustration which I explained in my last post. As for Bellaboo, enjoy the mediocrity that is OKC. I just may like Texas much better, who knows. Sad deal is I am Okie proud and also have been. I have so much state pride, that it's almost not healthy. Truly love Oklahoma and OKC, but sometimes you just realize it is what it is.

I know all about North Texas, been going down there for over 50 years, and thanks but no thanks.

[bchris02]

I know all about North Texas, been going down there for over 50 years, and thanks but no thanks.

I was talking with a guy a few weeks ago who grew up in OKC, graduated from OU, and moved to Dallas. He says there is a very distinct personality difference between his classmates who stayed in OKC and those who moved to DFW. According to him, the two areas, though only three hours apart, have a completely different mindset. You are an OKC person, but soondoc may very well be a DFW person.

[Bellaboo]

I was talking with a guy a few weeks ago who grew up in OKC, graduated from OU, and moved to Dallas. He says there is a very distinct personality difference between his classmates who stayed in OKC and those who moved to DFW. According to him, the two areas, though only three hours apart, have a completely different mindset. You are an OKC person, but soondoc may very well be a DFW person.

This very well could be true, but I've learned many years ago if a person is not happy about something within reason he can change, then don't hesitate.