BOK Park Plaza

[betts]

The conflict is that this was the Mayor's annual State of the City speech. If it was just a random chamber meeting then of course they should be free to distribute whatever petition full of lies that they please.



I see it's time for the "private property rights should triumph" discussion for the nth time. The very fact that Devon has to go in front of multiple city committees to get approval for these demolitions should tell you that you are simply not correct about private property rights versus the public interest. Admittedly, what the public interest actually is could be up for discussion, but that doesn't appear to be the point you are making.

I don't think anyone, including the Chamber, should assume that the public interest is not the business of the public. If property rights always triumph, then why do we have zoning laws, covenants, design review committees. Clearly it has long been recognized that a city is more than just a collection of individuals whose impact on one another is irrelevant.

[BoulderSooner]

The majority of the public doesn't care about these buildings.

[soonerwilliam]

+1

[betts]

The majority of the public doesn't pay attention. They didn't pay attention when we destroyed the Baum Building, the Criterion, the old City Hall, etc. either. That doesn't mean, with hindsight it was anything but a terrible idea to tear them down either. Those who serve the city are supposed to act in the best interest of the city, not just cater to the interests of a few who happen to have money and the political power it clearly bestows.

[Just the facts]

The majority of the public doesn't care about these buildings.

If a majority did would that trump private property rights?

[SouthsideSooner]

If a majority did would that trump private property rights?

What majority, Kerry? OKC is a very car culture, suburban city and it always will be... We don't feel a great loss for these buildings and are beyond thrilled about 700,000 sf of new class A office space being build on this corner and all the convenient parking spaces along with it... throw in the Clayco development and we couldn't be happier...

You wrote earlier that you thought we should be emulating downtown Chattanooga which has virtually no CBD...and we're making great strides in doing just that in all the districts surrounding the CBD...

No major city in the U.S. has every block in their CBD wrapped in retail and restaurants... not Manhattan, not Chicago... none...



...

[Paseofreak]

Well, if you don't look into what is the best plan and have an informed opinion then you'll accept what the three at the top shove down your throat. I'm not happy with that. Sheeple... SMDH!

[SouthsideSooner]

Well, if you don't look into what is the best plan and have an informed opinion then you'll accept what the three at the top shove down your throat. I'm not happy with that. Sheeple... SMDH!

I have a very informed opinion... I'm for well over a million sf of class A office space between the two developments. Truly historic. Creating the most iconic corner in the state...and the job creation, new restaurants and retail that these projects will provide...

So..just to redirect this a little....Tell me how significant downtown retail can be successful in the next 5 to 10 years without suburbanites driving in to spend our disposable income to support them...

[HOT ROD]

I dont know if this has been posted on here yet, but since Larry and the gang got free press from the chamber and solicited a petition and a link to it was even included in the Daily Oklahoman: - here is the petition from Preservation Oklahoma: https://www.change.org/p/oklahoma-ci...city-s-history

499 Sheridan

[dankrutka]

I have a very informed opinion... I'm for well over a million sf of class A office space between the two developments. Truly historic. Creating the most iconic corner in the state...and the job creation, new restaurants and retail that these projects will provide...

So..just to redirect this a little....Tell me how significant downtown retail can be successful in the next 5 to 10 years without suburbanites driving in to spend our disposable income to support them...

Iconic? What's gettig built could be in any city anywhere in the world. There's nothing unique or iconic about it.

And no one is saying suburbanites abandon downtown... I think people are arguing that downtown shouldn't be built from a suburban perspective. Can't at least the urban areas be built in an urban way... Is that really too much to ask? We're talking about a small area here...

[Paseofreak]

I have a very informed opinion... I'm for well over a million sf of class A office space between the two developments. Truly historic. Creating the most iconic corner in the state...and the job creation, new restaurants and retail that these projects will provide...

So..just to redirect this a little....Tell me how significant downtown retail can be successful in the next 5 to 10 years without suburbanites driving in to spend our disposable income to support them...

Crap! Just lost a whole big post. Must sleep. Will address tomorrow. Bottom line, a. Very selfish use of space.

[Just the facts]

I have a very informed opinion... I'm for well over a million sf of class A office space between the two developments. Truly historic. Creating the most iconic corner in the state...and the job creation, new restaurants and retail that these projects will provide...

So..just to redirect this a little....Tell me how significant downtown retail can be successful in the next 5 to 10 years without suburbanites driving in to spend our disposable income to support them...

No one is saying don't build the office space - we are saying build it better so that the street is inviting to retailers and pedestrians. They can build all the glass store fronts they want but if all the people are walking in skywalks from their car to their cubicale who is going to patronize the retailers? Also, retail can't survive on 9-5 office workers - period. If they could downtown OKC would already have a thriving retail presence.

[Bellaboo]

No one is saying don't build the office space - we are saying build it better so that the street is inviting to retailers and pedestrians. They can build all the glass store fronts they want but if all the people are walking in skywalks from their car to their cubicale who is going to patronize the retailers? Also, retail can't survive on 9-5 office workers - period. If they could downtown OKC would already have a thriving retail presence.

So you're telling us that housing in the CBD is the real key ?

[onthestrip]

The majority of the public doesn't care about these buildings.

Its not necessarily all about saving these buildings, although that does play a big part. Its also about what we are replacing them with, massive garages that hurt the urban fabric of a key block of downtown. If they were going to build another tower like 499 Sheridan on the SW corner, then I wouldnt have much issue with tearing down the bus station. But not for a concrete mountain.

I saw this on twitter that exposes the hypocrisy of some of this, Im paraphrasing it here...people use the argument of "functionally obsolete" and "not economically viable" to tear down an old building but then need millions of dollars in public assistance (TIF) to make the replacement buildings "economically viable."

[Bellaboo]

Its not necessarily all about saving these buildings, although that does play a big part. Its also about what we are replacing them with, massive garages that hurt the urban fabric of a key block of downtown. If they were going to build another tower like 499 Sheridan on the SW corner, then I wouldnt have much issue with tearing down the bus station. But not for a concrete mountain.

I saw this on twitter that exposes the hypocrisy of some of this, Im paraphrasing it here...people use the argument of "functionally obsolete" and "not economically viable" to tear down an old building but then need millions of dollars in public assistance (TIF) to make the replacement buildings "economically viable."

Except for 499 Sheridan, no TIF is being requested, IIRC.

[Just the facts]

So you're telling us that housing in the CBD is the real key ?

Absolutely. If it was up to me I would have to seriously consider only giving tax money to residential projects or the residential component of mixed-use projects. Instead of trying to lure retailers and employers spend the money on humans, and let the retailers and employers follow them back downtown. It is the exact same strategy that produced urban sprawl in the first place - except in reverse, and we see how well subsidizing residential urban sprawl worked in relocating an entire population of people. It was the largest migration of people in human history. The big difference is that we would have to get 30,000 people to live in an area 1/6 the size of how those 30,000 people live now - and you can only do that using urban design principles (a concept totally lost on the 'usual suspects').

[David]

What majority, Kerry? OKC is a very car culture, suburban city and it always will be... We don't feel a great loss for these buildings and are beyond thrilled about 700,000 sf of new class A office space being build on this corner and all the convenient parking spaces along with it... throw in the Clayco development and we couldn't be happier...

You wrote earlier that you thought we should be emulating downtown Chattanooga which has virtually no CBD...and we're making great strides in doing just that in all the districts surrounding the CBD...

No major city in the U.S. has every block in their CBD wrapped in retail and restaurants... not Manhattan, not Chicago... none...



...

Why did you even quote his post if you weren't going to answer his question? Hypothetically speaking, if a majority did care about these buildings would that trump private property rights?

[Pete]

The meeting is just starting...

[David]

Looks like Ben Felder is live tweeting from it again.

https://twitter.com/benfelder_okg for those that are interested in following along.

Edit: Looks like Steve is as well: https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer

[Laramie]

The popularity of the malls peaked in the 90s. OKC has four major malls, Quail Springs, Penn Square, North Park & Crossroads; that a lot of malls for a city of our size.

I'm no fan of I. M. Pei or what OKC Urban Renewal of the 60s did to our city:

Opportunity does exist for OKC to develop retail in the CBD & Bricktown. I. M. Pei was correct, when Oklahoma City built the metro-concourse street tunnels downtown; it killed the street life of our city. The original Galleria Mall concept proposed as part of the 'Pei plan' would have brought retail develop downtown; It would have also killed the street traffic.

Retail development will have a challenge downtown-Bricktown. The Bass-Pro shop's development didn't spark any retail development other than its own. Oklahoma City Outlet Mall Shoppes' derailed a piece of the retail development pie.

Just don't see any retail coming to the CBD unless you can develop a strip area for retail downtown. High class retail shoppers will continue to patronize cities like Tulsa & Dallas for their shopping experience.

[jn1780]

Looks like Ben Felder is live tweeting from it again.

https://twitter.com/benfelder_okg for those that are interested in following along.

Edit: Looks like Steve is as well: https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer

From Ben:

Clayco presenting to committee on its OG Energy Plaza. Has already said lower oil prices will impact timing of some construction.

[bchris02]

OKC is not alone in lacking high-end or specialty retail downtown. Charlotte doesn't have a department store downtown. Most of their upscale retail is concentrated around Southpark Mall, which is about 5 miles or so south of downtown Charlotte. What Charlotte has that OKC doesn't is adequate retail to support the population living downtown. If you live in downtown Charlotte you don't have to drive to the suburbs for basic necessities like you do in OKC. They have a CVS and Harris Teeter right in their CBD. Just outside the CBD there is a Trader Joe's and an urban Target. If downtown OKC retail can get at least to that level I would say it would be doing pretty well.

Of course downtown Charlotte probably has 3-4 times the number of people living in it as downtown OKC does and with major retail, rooftops are everything.

[Just the facts]

I. M. Pei was correct, when Oklahoma City built the metro-concourse street tunnels downtown; it killed the street life of our city. The original Galleria Mall concept proposed as part of the 'Pei plan' would have brought retail develop downtown; It would have also killed the street traffic.

100% correct. One only needs to look at two places in Center City Philadelphia, Walnut Street with its sidewalk facing retail and The Mall at East Market, after 5PM. Separated by only a few blocks but worlds apart.

Watch this video for more information of the demise of the shopping mall and why street based retail will be the future (and then keep that in mind with this crap from Devon).
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000324309#.

[Pete]

Ben Felder ‏@benfelder_okg 9s10 seconds ago
Cost per parking space doubles when you put a parking lot under building, even more if underground, developer says.

[Pete]

Steve's OKC Central ‏@stevelackmeyer 5m5 minutes ago
Tom D'arcy with Hines saying few hundred spaces in new garages for overflow at Devon Energy Center.