BOK Park Plaza

[bchris02]

Yes, we could go back to the crumbling one way streets, serious lack of bicycle lanes, poor pedestrian crossings, the 30 year old version of the MBG, higher unemployment rates, etc. IIRC, he removed himself from several authorities and boards when they decided to build their HQ tower. He also denied the city to rename the Civic Center park after him. I can understand when he invest as much as he did, he wants a few things right. Should they keep some of those buildings, I think so, but Hines is involved also and I don't think they are attached to them.
The bottom line, OKC is a better place with him than without. Could things be better ? Everyone thinks so, but they could be much worse.

+1

There is a fine line between preservationism and biting the hand that feeds you.

[David]

There's also a line between biting the hand that feeds you and letting buildings that have been intentionally allowed to decay through lack of maintenance be torn down because they haven't been maintained.

[BDP]

Preservation zealots. Always mention the Skirvin. These building are not the Skirvin. Not even close.

Nor do they have to be to be worth saving.

Nothing in bricktown was the skirvin. Nothing in midtown or automobile alley was the skirvin. Nothing in the Paseo or 23rd was the skirvin. But, all of these districts owe more of their current status as emerging vibrant districts to renovation and preservation than they do to demolition.

This block is more of a collective issue and use issue. Not only are we going to lose most of a block for parking, which will limit the density of the entire block, we're clearing one of a few blocks left that show Oklahoma City did have an urban past with representative period architecture. And this unimaginative project could go several places in downtown within blocks of this one and not have to replace ANY current assets with parking. It's just sucks on so many levels. It really really will be one where it only gets better the farther you get from it.

But, you know, pretty much every city has a sterile and bland section that has lots of massing and no life. This will be ours.

[BDP]

+1

There is a fine line between preservationism and biting the hand that feeds you.

There's also the consideration of how far you have to bend over to get fed.

[Popsy]

Does anyone know if Devon will allow non-employees to sign their petition in favor of the demolitions?

[BDP]

Does anyone know if Devon will allow non-employees to sign their petition in favor of the demolitions?

Haha. I don't think that'll be necessary.

[OKCisOK4me]

If Larry Nichols would have relocated Devon to Houston, just how much would downtown suck ? No MBG transformation, nor P180 improvements.....still have a huge Galleria parking lot. And no Devon Tower.

You build the biggest house in Galardia, doesn't mean you're the head of the HOA.

[Dubya61]

Thank goodness for that... He is with out a doubt one of the great civic leaders in our cities history... The guy with the vision. the determination and the ability to make it happen versus the critics that don't even live here that want to tell us how we should be doing things while they have nothing invested... .

I'm a lot more comfortable with his vision and ability to get it done than yours...

What if Mr. Nichols' vision and ability don't equal good new urbanism?
What if good new urbanism equals good management of real estate and taxing mechanisms for the city?
What if good new urbanism equals creating a vibrant downtown that could be a viral cure for what ails Oklahoma City (and many metros)?
What if Mr. Nichols' vision and ability make it harder for OKC to progress into a dynamic downtown that many aspire to live in?
Reading through this thread makes me think of the rich patron in Amadeus who listened to Mozart's music and declared it had "too many notes".
Do we also get absolution for mediocrity if it comes from the mind of a seemingly benevolent patron?

[OKCinsomniac]

Yes, we could go back to the crumbling one way streets, serious lack of bicycle lanes, poor pedestrian crossings, the 30 year old version of the MBG, higher unemployment rates, etc. IIRC, he removed himself from several authorities and boards when they decided to build their HQ tower. He also denied the city to rename the Civic Center park after him. I can understand when he invest as much as he did, he wants a few things right. Should they keep some of those buildings, I think so, but Hines is involved also and I don't think they are attached to them.
The bottom line, OKC is a better place with him than without. Could things be better ? Everyone thinks so, but they could be much worse.

But this thread is so much more entertaining when people are vilifying Larry Nichols!

[betts]

If Larry Nichols would have relocated Devon to Houston, just how much would downtown suck ? No MBG transformation, nor P180 improvements.....still have a huge Galleria parking lot. And no Devon Tower.

While I appreciate what he has done for downtown, I don't think that means he should be given carte Blanche to do anything he pleases. He's a businessman, not an architect or planner. We should all be aware of our own limitations.

[Motley]

it is only a couple of blocks downtown in the business core! Is OKC so fragile that a two block region will destroy all urbanism in the city? There are lots of other vital areas in around downtown that meet the urbanism vision. I don't think one corporate headquarters, located with the intention to spur redevelopment in a decaying downtown, warrant all the negativity. Maybe 499 Sheridan will be cold and bleak, but it will also bring a lot of people to the area. Some may drive in and drive out without touching the ground, but many will go to lunch and do a bit of shopping and maybe even choose to move closer to work, all benefiting downtown. I just don't see this development as a cancer. May not be the best it could be, but it will provide an overall benefit to downtown.

[Pete]

Reminder that a very small number of downtown businessmen were behind the massive clearings in favor of development that never came.

There is always a risk that after a demolition that the promised (or anticipated) development falls through.

We've already seen that happen with SandRidge, as they stated emphatically they would build another tower on their property, then their business hit a rough patch, the man that made the promise was thrown out and now we'll be lucky if they continue to inhabit what they already have.

In fact, they had to lease out the Braniff and will probably do so with the Parkside.

[Bellaboo]

I wish that the bus station and Hotel Black could be incorporated and if not one then the other. But I can also be a realist here. How often has there been a 400 to 500 million dollar development dropped in our lap, and without TIF funding help requested ?
Ideally, they move the west garage to the east and leave the bus station for other development. Stack 499 on top of the garage (soondoc should like this because it'd be taller) and leave the Black Hotel. I really believe that the Black is basically in the way of the sight line view to MBG. If the tower were stacked on the garage it would alleviate that issue. I'd love for the Hotel Black to be another Colcord.
But it's not my money and they need it to work financially for themselves.

[Pete]

^

The estimated cost for 499 Sheridan is about $250 million; maybe slightly less.

[David]

Heh, I was just able to go look up that number.

[Pete]

Heh, I was just able to go look up that number.

How?

[David]

Mistype, that should be about not able.

[warreng88]

For those that might know, what do you think the cost difference would be between a standalone parking garage and a parking garage with an office building on top of it? Are we talking 10% increase in cost? More? Since all of these are going to be concrete, I would think the footing and thickness of the concrete on the parking garage would have to be thicker, but that is about it. Of course, I am not an architect...

[Just the facts]

While I appreciate what he has done for downtown, I don't think that means he should be given carte Blanche to do anything he pleases. He's a businessman, not an architect or planner. We should all be aware of our own limitations.

Exactly. There is no reason at all that Devon couldn't expand AND preserve what has already been built. It is just a matter of wanting to. When I go to places like Chattanooga and see how well they have restored their historic downtown I actually get very sad that civic leaders in OKC have zero interest in following that model.

[Pete]

$225 - $250 million is the number the City is using when calculating pro formas for the new TIF this project will feed.

Basically, in terms of expense: 499 Sheridan + OG&E Energy Center = Devon Energy Center

[Laramie]

Development will continue to penetrate the OKC Central Business District. Many of you would love to see some taller structures comparable to the Devon Tower on the developments being proposed like the Stage Center and Preftakes blocks.

Don't be surprised to see future development within this five year window include some 40 - 50 story structures. The tall towers will come as long as Oklahoma City doesn't place a restriction on height.

[BDP]

For those that might know, what do you think the cost difference would be between a standalone parking garage and a parking garage with an office building on top of it? Are we talking 10% increase in cost? More? Since all of these are going to be concrete, I would think the footing and thickness of the concrete on the parking garage would have to be thicker, but that is about it. Of course, I am not an architect...

I get the impression they just want them gone. It doesn't seem like design, price, or impact is a consideration.

They bought up this block while it had tenants in it for a good deal a money. A lot more than it would have been to buy one up that was already 50%+ parking and less occupancy. Then they cleared out the tenants and got it deemed "functionally obsolete", so they could scrape the block of assets they paid for and make it 50%+ parking.

Considering who is behind it, the demolition for parking is not the result of some logistical or financial limitations. This is what they have wanted from the beginning.

[Stickman]

For those that might know, what do you think the cost difference would be between a standalone parking garage and a parking garage with an office building on top of it? Are we talking 10% increase in cost? More? Since all of these are going to be concrete, I would think the footing and thickness of the concrete on the parking garage would have to be thicker, but that is about it. Of course, I am not an architect...

About $250 million. That is after the vehicle's bomb goes off UNDER the building. Sic. maybe, but it can happen.

[Paseofreak]

I get the impression they just want them gone. It doesn't seem like design, price, or impact is a consideration.

They bought up this block while it had tenants in it for a good deal a money. A lot more than it would have been to buy one up that was already 50%+ parking and less occupancy. Then they cleared out the tenants and got it deemed "functionally obsolete", so they could scrape the block of assets they paid for and make it 50%+ parking.

Considering who is behind it, the demolition is not the result of some logistical or financial limitations. This is what they have wanted from the beginning.

I believe your assessment is spot on, and I hold out little hope for the historic structures. They are building this space, which includes DEC proper, 499 Sheridan, the Convention Center, the CC hotel, all heavily influenced by Larry and Devon, and combined with The Chesapeake Arena and the OG&E/Clayco projects to be used and viewed from inside or from a distance. There is absolutely no meaningful respect for the activity with the street. They are building a bleak moat around the MBG with only one destination per block. Most of OKC will have no reason to go there.

OKC needs to demand that the street level on all four sides remain or be built to be welcoming, active and vibrant for all citizens. Window boxes won't cut it. If we do let it slide, we'll be living with it for the next fifty years before the opportunity to correct it comes around.

[Plutonic Panda]

If Larry Nichols would have relocated Devon to Houston, just how much would downtown suck ? No MBG transformation, nor P180 improvements.....still have a huge Galleria parking lot. And no Devon Tower.

Yes, we could go back to the crumbling one way streets, serious lack of bicycle lanes, poor pedestrian crossings, the 30 year old version of the MBG, higher unemployment rates, etc. IIRC, he removed himself from several authorities and boards when they decided to build their HQ tower. He also denied the city to rename the Civic Center park after him. I can understand when he invest as much as he did, he wants a few things right. Should they keep some of those buildings, I think so, but Hines is involved also and I don't think they are attached to them.
The bottom line, OKC is a better place with him than without. Could things be better ? Everyone thinks so, but they could be much worse.

Couldn't agree more!