OKC Vs. Tulsa

[LandArchPoke]

Name calling isn't appropriate here no matter who is doing it. Your pertinent comments are appreciated but you have to be prepared for those who will challenge what you say without getting too offensive.

I enjoy the debate, or else I wouldn't post on here. I do get irritated when there seems to be a double standard on issues. I felt like what Cuatrode posted was meant to demean and poke fun at some of the information I've posted here in a sarcastic way. So I posted something sarcastic back. If he finds it offensive, then like I said I would like him to message me as I am not the type of person who can't say sorry if I did hurt his feelings - but as the comments were between him and I that is a discussion for us and not anyone else.

[ljbab728]

I enjoy the debate, or else I wouldn't post on here. I do get irritated when there seems to be a double standard on issues. I felt like what Cuatrode posted was meant to demean and poke fun at some of the information I've posted here in a sarcastic way. So I posted something sarcastic back. If he finds it offensive, then like I said I would like him to message me as I am not the type of person who can't say sorry if I did hurt his feelings - but as the comments were between him and I that is a discussion for us and not anyone else.

Well, in that case you probably should have directed your original comments directly to him in a private message instead of for everyone to see. As I said, I think you have an interesting perspective here but I have seen others with similar good initial intentions get banned for the kinds of public comments they make about other posters. You are apparently fairly new here and Pete keeps the standards for posters and their comments high or they are gone.

[PhiAlpha]

Not to pile on, but the notion that Tulsa's downtown was not decimated like OKC's isn't correct. Look at downtown Tulsa from Google Earth. The southern and eastern parts are all but gone, other than a few buildings, many of which are churches. The East End is, thankfully, now seeing a decent amount of investment, taking up several empty lots within the next 1-3 years, but my point remains. Much of downtown Tulsa is/was entirely empty. There is a lot of work still to be done to fully rebuild downtown Tulsa. If you would like to see what is being done about that, refer back to Swake's posts earlier in this thread.

In my opinion, the biggest advantage OKC has over Tulsa is leadership that recognizes the importance of good urban infrastructure. OKC is about to start construction on a streetcar loop, while Tulsa won't even try to implement a decent bus loop, for example.

Where I think Tulsa is ahead:

Outdoor recreation. Some of this is due to the natural topography, but Riverparks and Turkey Mountain (and in several years, the Gathering Place) provide opportunities for recreation not available (to my knowledge) in OKC.

Live Music: Tulsa has the Cain's, Brady Theater, and the Vanguard that consistently bring in great shows. And, of course, the BOK Center which brings in many of the big names, however the Chesapeake Arena also attracts these.

Anything else that Tulsa may be ahead in, that I can think of, is intangible. I love midtown, but it is hard to compare to anything in OKC. South Tulsa/Jenks/Bixby is also unlike any area that I've been to in OKC, although probably most similar to Edmond. The two are hard to compare, due to the more spread out nature of OKC and it's suburbs.

Oklahoma City is ahead of Tulsa in nearly every tangible measure. This does not mean that OKC is necessarily better than Tulsa, but the city is experiencing faster growth.

From the time I've spent in OKC, I really do like it. A lot. But I prefer Tulsa. Tulsa suits my personality better. Tulsa feels less corporate than OKC, and there are other intangible things that I can't quite discern that give the cities, at least for me, very different personalities. However, should I ever live in OKC, I'm sure that I would be happy there, and I'm sure I would find some things that I liked better.

As dankrutka said, it's not about one city being better than the other, it's about what an individual prefers.

If this stems from my earlier comment, I never said tulsa's downtown wasn't decimated, I said their historic neighborhoods near downtown were not AS decimated as OKCs. To my knowledge, midtown Tulsa did not experience the same level of deterioration that many of okc's inner city higher end, historic neighborhoods did and it shows. It probably helps that most of the nicer neighborhoods are concentrated instead of in the checkerboard pattern in OKC that makes it possible to go from a mansion to crack houses in a few blocks.

[Plutonic Panda]

Ah yes, I can be called an ass... but I can't say that someone whit is overpowering?

Did I say anything to you about your comments. I came on here to try an contribute to the overall sight, and when I tried to offer insight and ideas in threads like 499 W Sheridan you attacked me on there. So I dropped it.

You and several other people seem to think I'm out to get OKC. I have not ever said that either Tulsa or OKC is better than one another. I try to post relevant information and stats to help people think more critically about what they are saying. Don't like it, well that's unfortunate.

I'm glad you got to experience more of Tulsa, and hopefully you get a chance to explore more of it and find it's hidden gems that gives you something to look forward to when you are there.

You can do whatever you want.

My point was: I think you were making some pretty good points earlier, but the official census is taken once every ten years and the rest are just predictions from the growth that was compared around the time the real census was taken, as I understand it. Using the census is a bit unfair here and that's what I meant when I took the stance I did against you regarding that.

I appreciate your contributions either way.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Your amazing whit is overpowering. Care to add anything relevant to the discussion?

Sure. I think you meant "wit" not "whit"

[LandArchPoke]

Sure. I think you meant "wit" not "whit"

Touche.

[Just the facts]

What makes all this OKC vs. Tulsa thing kind of funny is that despite the progress in both cities, they are barely keeping pace with nearly every other city in America who are themselves experiencing amazing urban growth.

[LocoAko]

What makes all this OKC vs. Tulsa thing kind of funny is that despite the progress in both cities, they are barely keeping pace with nearly every other city in America who are themselves experiencing amazing urban growth.

At the risk of causing eye rolling and bringing up an overplayed joke, I can't help but smile at this argument when many (dare I say most? *cringe*) Americans couldn't locate either city accurately on a map. Cue infamous Friends clip of Chandler announcing his job offer in Tulsa...

[Rover]

What makes all this OKC vs. Tulsa thing kind of funny is that despite the progress in both cities, they are barely keeping pace with nearly every other city in America who are themselves experiencing amazing urban growth.

Again, you degrade OKC whenever you can. CNN/Money lists OKC as the 9th fastest growing metro in the US according to the US Census dept. But what do they know?

[Pete]

What makes all this OKC vs. Tulsa thing kind of funny is that despite the progress in both cities, they are barely keeping pace with nearly every other city in America who are themselves experiencing amazing urban growth.

What on earth or you basing this on?

Could things be better in OKC? Sure. But to say OKC is 'barely keeping pace with nearly every other city in America" is BS.

OKC is routinely held out as a great example, civic leaders are invited to speak on this subject, etc.

Billions have been invested in downtown OKC in just the last 15 years or so. I'd stack that up against any other city of similar size, and I'm sure it's better than several that are much bigger.

[Dubya61]

When I grew up (in Ponca City) there were three metros of interest, and you could get all three of all three's TV channels there. There's an historic ranch up there called the 101 ranch. It was said that it was named the 103 Ranch because it was 103 miles to all three (Wichita, Tulsa, and OKC). Can't account for the change in name and it's not all that pertinent, except to say that the three were mostly equal to Ponca Citians by and large. The two Oklahoma cities were more desirable in my household than Wichita for no particular reason I could discern. It was always my understanding that OKC and Tulsa related much like Dallas and Fort Worth. One was historically oil-based (Tulsa and Dallas) and one was historically cattle-based (OKC and Ft. Worth). One was white-collared and one was blue-collared. I know now that it was all an unrealistic generalization, but that's what I grew up with. If that's what the Costco gentleman who grew up in Western Oklahoma started with, it would go a long way to explain his interpretation of the statistics he had available to him.

[NWOKCGuy]

What on earth or you basing this on?

Could things be better in OKC? Sure. But to say OKC is 'barely keeping pace with nearly every other city in America" is BS.

OKC is routinely held out as a great example, civic leaders are invited to speak on this subject, etc.

Billions have been invested in downtown OKC in just the last 15 years or so. I'd stack that up against any other city of similar size, and I'm sure it's better than several that are much bigger.

Jacksonville is doing so much better.

[josh]

As an outside observer with no horse in the race, this thread and topic is just... fascinating to say the least.

[LandArchPoke]

At the risk of causing eye rolling and bringing up an overplayed joke, I can't help but smile at this argument when many (dare I say most? *cringe*) Americans couldn't locate either city accurately on a map. Cue infamous Friends clip of Chandler announcing his job offer in Tulsa...

There's also a lot of people who think we don't have electricity, we all have horses, and we live in tents next to buffalo. The vast majority of people have no clue about anything in this part of the country. The lead economist for the office I used to work for asked me where I was from, and I said Oklahoma. Her reply was "that's one of those box states in the middle of the country right?" and she wasn't joking sadly enough.

What on earth or you basing this on?

Could things be better in OKC? Sure. But to say OKC is 'barely keeping pace with nearly every other city in America" is BS.

OKC is routinely held out as a great example, civic leaders are invited to speak on this subject, etc.

Billions have been invested in downtown OKC in just the last 15 years or so. I'd stack that up against any other city of similar size, and I'm sure it's better than several that are much bigger.

In regards to infrastructure, OKC is outspending most cities. Development always follows infrastructure.

[PhiAlpha]

What makes all this OKC vs. Tulsa thing kind of funny is that despite the progress in both cities, they are barely keeping pace with nearly every other city in America who are themselves experiencing amazing urban growth.

Do you travel to cities of OKC and Tulsa's size very often? I do, and this comment is completely inaccurate. Just because we aren't the shining example of your ridiculously high new urbanism standards doesn't mean we aren't ahead of or at minimum keeping pace with other cities of our size.

[PhiAlpha]

"And Deep Deuce is ALREADY well beyond anything in Tulsa, as is Bricktown."

Direct quote from you ^. For someone who claims to be objective, where is your data to support that it is better than anything in Tulsa? It's laughable.

I used Census data. If that's not good enough for you because it disproves your opinion that is stated as a fact, then dig your head deeper into the sand.

Is it off? Yes. Like I said, Census data is only so accurate. It's equally inaccurate no matter how to compare it anywhere, which means the numbers are the same everywhere. Do I need to explain Statistics 101? I'm sure this is some conspiracy in Washington, D.C. though to promote Tulsa over OKC right?

Example: You could have someone who goes to OU, say from Dallas, who lives in Deep Deuce. They may never establish residency in Oklahoma City, so they are never accounted for in Census data as they are counted in their parents residence in Dallas. Same can be said about someone who goes to TU and would live in the East Village, and is from Dallas.

You have done nothing to prove your opinion as fact. If you are going to call other people out, then you should be held equally accountable. If you don't like my facts and data, disprove it.

I am in Tulsa 4-6 times a month and there is no urban neighborhood that compares in density to deep duece. It isn't even an arguement. How many 100+ unit apartment complexes are open, under construction, or proposed in or in immediate proximity to downtown tulsa?

[Pete]

Article today in the Louisville paper about how they want to follow OKC's path to downtown development:

Louisville Mayor Greg Fischer wants to follow Oklahoma City local tax model

[LandArchPoke]

I am in Tulsa 4-6 times a month and there is no urban neighborhood that compares in density to deep duece. It isn't even an arguement. How many 100+ unit apartment complexes are open, under construction, or proposed in or in immediate proximity to downtown tulsa?

What is your definition of proximity to downtown? That could vary by each individual person. I've stated multiple times several of the multifamily projects under construction and in the planning phases in Downtown Tulsa. If everything that is on the drawing boards is constructed in a timely manner with ideal market conditions that we have currently, there could be 2,000 or more units built inside the IDL in the next 2-3 years.

Riverview has a much higher density than Deep Deuce. It just happens the majority of these large multifamily properties were built between 1960 - 1990 (Lincoln on Riverside, University Club Tower, Mansion House, Pythain Manor, etc - All 100+ unit buildings). Mansion House just underwent essentially a complete gut renovation too, as is Renaissance Uptown on the north edge of Riverview. As stated before, this area has over 3,000 residents, much denser than Deep Deuce and similar sized areas.

Does this make Riverview better than Deep Deuce? No. It's a personal preference.

Now if you said Deep Deuce has the highest density of new construction multifamily in Oklahoma since 2000, then you would in fact be correct. No one has said that, however. Just stating it is the densest urban neighborhood does not make it a fact, sorry.

[Rover]

This is an amazing exchange of "oh yeh, mine's bigger than yours". Just when I think we've evolved a little, I come across a thread like this. Lol

[hoya]

What is your definition of proximity to downtown? That could vary by each individual person. I've stated multiple times several of the multifamily projects under construction and in the planning phases in Downtown Tulsa. If everything that is on the drawing boards is constructed in a timely manner with ideal market conditions that we have currently, there could be 2,000 or more units built inside the IDL in the next 2-3 years.

Riverview has a much higher density than Deep Deuce. It just happens the majority of these large multifamily properties were built between 1960 - 1990 (Lincoln on Riverside, University Club Tower, Mansion House, Pythain Manor, etc - All 100+ unit buildings). Mansion House just underwent essentially a complete gut renovation too, as is Renaissance Uptown on the north edge of Riverview. As stated before, this area has over 3,000 residents, much denser than Deep Deuce and similar sized areas.

Does this make Riverview better than Deep Deuce? No. It's a personal preference.

Now if you said Deep Deuce has the highest density of new construction multifamily in Oklahoma since 2000, then you would in fact be correct. No one has said that, however. Just stating it is the densest urban neighborhood does not make it a fact, sorry.

I just Google mapped my way around the Riverview area, streetview style. Deep Deuce is significantly more dense. The Riverview area may have more residents, but it's also a larger area. I also saw a lot of surface parking lots and bad urban design. There are a lot of single family homes there as well. Just because there are a few large apartment complexes somewhat near one another with a bunch of suburban style houses in between doesn't make it an urban neighborhood in the sense that we've been talking about.

Now I'd love to be able to drop Liberty Tower or Boulder Towers or University Club Tower right into Oklahoma City. They're cool towers and Tulsa should be proud of them. But the area surrounding those towers? Just a bunch of older houses and big big parking lots.

[LandArchPoke]

I just Google mapped my way around the Riverview area, streetview style. Deep Deuce is significantly more dense. The Riverview area may have more residents, but it's also a larger area. I also saw a lot of surface parking lots and bad urban design. There are a lot of single family homes there as well. Just because there are a few large apartment complexes somewhat near one another with a bunch of suburban style houses in between doesn't make it an urban neighborhood in the sense that we've been talking about.

Now I'd love to be able to drop Liberty Tower or Boulder Towers or University Club Tower right into Oklahoma City. They're cool towers and Tulsa should be proud of them. But the area surrounding those towers? Just a bunch of older houses and big big parking lots.

Density by definition is “the number of inhabitants, dwellings, or the like, per unit area”

By that definition, Riverview is denser than Deep Deuce.

Is the urban design better? That’s a debate of opinion. Denver Avenue is not pedestrian friendly whatsoever, and to get to the bars/food in SOBO you do have to walk across empty grass lots. I would say in my opinion, Deep Deuce feels safer as a pedestrian when I walk around it than Riverview. The on street parking, street trees, and wider sidewalk make for a better-constructed neighborhood in my opinion. Walkscore.com gives similar ratings for both neighborhoods mid 60s – 70s, however.

Here is how I am basing my population numbers. I drew a polygon over Deep Deuce and dragged it up I-44 and put it over Riverview.



Most of the older house in this area are multiple dwelling units or offices too. Pretty much every property have a rental property above the garage in the back. Many of the buildings that look like houses too are actually smaller 4 - 8 unit apartment buildings too. To me that makes for an interesting mixture and builds a truly inclusive type of neighborhood because you can find a cheap studio or nice studio in a mid-rise or low rise building, a row house, or single family home all within blocks of each other.

[hoya]

But that's not all of Riverview. You've positioned it to hit the portion of it with the highest population buildings. Move it 3 blocks over and you've got tons of surface parking.

[LandArchPoke]

I overlaid the Deep Deuce polygon in the center of Riverview. See the map above, which is from the Tulsa Preservation Commission.

How do you define Riverview?

[Laramie]

Oklahoma is blessed with two metropolitan areas which are on the verge. Oklahoma City has a solid foundation with MAPS... Tulsa has local investors like George Kaiser, who his willing to invest millions in the community he loves.

The future developments in each city will help complement what is already established. The price of growth sometimes come with devastation of historic structures which will be sacrificed to make room for the new.

Tulsa & Oklahoma City are cities that will 'prepare a place' as they chart the direction for their future. The development pattern comes down to how each city can make the 'new' blend in with the 'old.'

Accentuate the positives of two young great American cities.

As my mother once told the four boys she raised (reared); you're too big & to old to be fighting among yourselves, it's time to work together and look out for one another.

[Pete]

I know I'm going to regret this but... We are seeking to compare clearly defined and organized DISTRICTS, not neighborhoods, historical areas, groups of living units or general areas.

And this is how they are defined by the formal downtown organizations for both OKC and Tulsa:

http://www.tulsadowntown.org/general/1012/our-downtown


Maps | DowntownOKC