OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

[bchris02]

This may be an ignorant viewpoint on my behalf (as someone on a graduate student salary lol), and putting aside my personal desire for a Costco and/or Trader Joes for a second... why the preoccupation with the high-end retailers? I frequently hear you (in this thread and many others) lament that OKC specifically lacks retailers at the highest end of the spectrum. That may (or may not) be true, but as far as I'm concerned that doesn't matter for 90% of the population here that doesn't care to or can't afford to shop at these places. Why the focus on stores that cater to the uppermost tier of the city's population that won't be used by most? Is it solely about appearances and perception to people outside the city?

I wouldn't really consider Costco and Trader Joe's to be high-end and only affordable by the top 10%. Same with H&M. They are trendy retailers that usually locate in higher-end shopping centers. Trader Joe's and H&M are quite affordable for what they are and Costco is a nice alternative to Sam's Club for those who don't like supporting Wal-Mart.

Louis Vuitton, Tiffany & Co, and Gucci are higher end retailers that I would like to see in OKC as a status symbol but probably wouldn't do much shopping there myself.

[Pete]

I wouldn't really consider Costco and Trader Joe's to be high-end and only affordable by the top 10%. Same with H&M. They are trendy retailers that usually locate in higher-end shopping centers.

False. And again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Costco is almost always stand-alone and often in out-lying and even industrial areas. Trader Joe's can be in nicer centers, but so can almost any grocer. The large majority of their locations are not higher-end.

H&M is likely to have their one OKC location at Quail Springs, so draw your own conclusions from that.

[Celebrator]

Perhaps some of the perceptions as to why Tulsa has more of a urban, cosmopolitan feel to it could be the way Tulsa was settled. When oil struck big in Tulsa it created a lot of opportunities for people back east such as engineers and educated people to settle in Tulsa. Tulsa was known as a very clean, beautiful city and was once the "Oil capital of the World", and as a result of this, it brought in a influx of money and people that were not natives. OKC on the other hand, was founded overnight by the land run of 1889 and brought people who wanted a new life with a pioneering, frontier spirit. Many of these people most likely had very little and were searching for a new life. OKC atmosphere is more cowboy blue collar where as Tulsa is more urban, white collar. Again, this is just my perception!

From what I understand, this is bang on. I talked to someone who knew Mrs. Fred Jones very, very well. She said this exact thing about Tulsa vs. OKC..."Tulsa was developed by eastern businessmen and OKC was developed by cowboys." Interestingly, she also apparently said that the high-society types were always courting Fred and Mrs. Jones to move to Tulsa and be part of their scene there. But Fred Jones was very loyal to OKC since it is where he got his opportunities early on and where he made his money, therefore their philanthropy was concentrated in OKC and they never moved to Tulsa.

[LandArchPoke]

I just had a long conversation with a real estate broker in OKC that specializes in retail deals and I asked him about the Oklahoman's article and he just laughed and said, "That reporter doesn't know what she's talking about."


I'll state this one more time...

Virtually any retailer not already in Oklahoma comes in and looks at Tulsa and OKC simultaneously. Almost no one comes in with a strategy of only being in one market or the other.

So, they look at both markets and where they go first almost always hinges on where they find a deal they like best, based on property, location, price, incentives, neighboring competition, etc.

Also, retailers almost always divide up their new locations by region where each gets a budgeted number of new locations per year. If they open in OKC, that might mean other locations in other regions will then get higher priority before they open in Tulsa; or vice versa.

This is exactly what happened with Costco. They came in and looked at both markets at the same time, found one they liked in OKC first and put it under contract, then that deal fell apart for various reasons and the site was no longer available, so they found one in Tulsa they liked better. The next Costco in Oklahoma will now be in OKC. Could have just have easily gone the other way, as it does more than not. There was no strategy to go to Tulsa first; it just happened that way.


If someone wants to point out a major retailer that is choosing Tulsa and then has no plans to go to OKC, then I'd say we have an issue that needs addressing. But I can't think of one single case that fits that description, other than Saks which was 30 years ago and a very unique situation.

Restoration Hardware is another. Urban Outfitters is another (whether anyone cares about it or not). I wouldn't say two retailers is much to get in a frenzy over however. Von Maur isn't exactly knocking down the door to enter Tulsa at the moment.

Did you see the list I've posted basically twice now of retailers to update for the list? You can add Swarovski to opening in Tulsa first. BooksAMillion I said in the first go round, but not in the previous list as exclusive to Tulsa.

Where does this list begin - end though? Like I and others have asked. Hemisphere's isn't exactly a national retailer. Do event center's really even count too? I get a Main Event/Dave & Busters type "event" center, but I don't see how Noah's has much relevance, sorry.

Pretty much every retailer that is in Oklahoma comes to the state with plans to open in both markets rather quickly outside of Von Maur, Urban Outfitters, and Saks.

[bchris02]

False. And again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Costco is almost always stand-alone and often in out-lying and even industrial areas. Trader Joe's can be in nicer centers, but so can almost any grocer. The large majority of their locations are not higher-end.

H&M is likely to have their one OKC location at Quail Springs, so draw your own conclusions from that.

I don't understand what was incorrect at all about what I said.

Costco is usually standalone but the ones I am familiar with are in nicer areas. I am not saying there aren't exceptions but I've never seen a Costco in the same shopping center as a K-Mart. If they would have got the location they wanted in OKC, it would have been a part of Chisholm Creek which if built as planned will be the nicest shopping center in the OKC metro. H&M also does tend to locate in thriving malls that lean towards the higher end. The ones I am familiar with are in the Galleria in Dallas and in Carolina Place Mall in Charlotte. Both of those malls are above Penn Square in scale let alone Quail Springs. The fact they are going to Quail Springs Mall is a great sign for that mall and a signal that the owners are wanting to move it up a tier in its offerings. Every Trader Joe's I've ever seen has been in a nicer shopping center as well and it makes sense being that higher-income rooftops are part of the criteria they use for selecting location. I don't view it as a high-end grocery store though. I was always surprised at how affordable it actually was when I would shop there in Charlotte.

[Pete]

Pretty much every retailer that is in Oklahoma comes to the state with plans to open in both markets rather quickly outside of Von Maur, Urban Outfitters, and Saks.

Urban Outfitters has been scouting sites in OKC for quite some time.

[Pete]

I don't understand what was incorrect at all about what I said.

Debating with you is not worth my time and energy.

[LandArchPoke]

Urban Outfitters has been scouting sites in OKC for quite some time.

As they might be. What I was told from (not a friend of a friend of a friend said) was that OKC wasn't in the immediate plan as there was no where they had the pedestrian traffic they wanted for a store (and I'm not saying this to piss anyone on here off either). That was months ago, so like all things in business.. they could change. I have also said I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up in Automobile Alley correct? I think they would be very successful in OKC close to downtown or in Classen Curve potentially. Anthropologie is more expensive, along with West Elm, and they are both doing just fine. Frankly I think most national retailers vastly under estimate the buying power this state has, and is willing to spend on goods.

Are you going to update the Tulsa list at the top of the page or not? You wanted input. I gave a lot, and it's been pushed under the rug. I would appreciate if you could update it, thanks.

[Bellaboo]

Also Pete,

Israel Diamonds is in Tulsa, the only store for this company in the United States I believe.

They are the best 'diamond' store I've ever been in.

[TheTravellers]

... Every Trader Joe's I've ever seen has been in a nicer shopping center as well and it makes sense being that higher-income rooftops are part of the criteria they use for selecting location. I don't view it as a high-end grocery store though. I was always surprised at how affordable it actually was when I would shop there in Charlotte.

The Downers Grove location is in a completely average strip mall (Office Depot, party store, See's Candies, and other standard strip-mall tenants), which I wouldn't classify as "nicer". Yeah, it's better than a strip mall with Little Caesar's, nail salon, and donut shop, but it's just average, IMO. You're absolutely right, though, about it being affordable.

[zachj7]

Costco and Sam's Club are as similar as two retailers can get in terms of products and target market. If you've been in both, you know they are so similar it's almost bizarre, right down to the items they each sell in their food courts.

???

Costco has a much larger selection, better brands, and has a much better customer service. Their grocery area is much larger and of higher quality. They treat their employees better and pay significantly higher. Those are significant differences. Even Costco's food court thingy is better.

Who cares about this Tulsa vs OKC thing. Tulsa will get Costco and TJ's first. OKC got Big Event, Von Maur, the outlet mall first. Win some and lose some. Eventually OKC will have all that Tulsa has. OKC continues to attract higher paying jobs. It will be interesting if these super low gas prices will affect OKC's economy thus slowing retail coming in.

[Rover]

What I read on here about who may or may not come, or why, is usually just speculation or rumor and not usually connected to anyone actually familiar with principals in the projects. Pete tries to temper rumor with facts, but it seems many don't want to listen.

[PhiAlpha]

As they might be. What I was told from (not a friend of a friend of a friend said) was that OKC wasn't in the immediate plan as there was no where they had the pedestrian traffic they wanted for a store (and I'm not saying this to piss anyone on here off either). That was months ago, so like all things in business.. they could change. I have also said I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up in Automobile Alley correct? I think they would be very successful in OKC close to downtown or in Classen Curve potentially. Anthropologie is more expensive, along with West Elm, and they are both doing just fine. Frankly I think most national retailers vastly under estimate the buying power this state has, and is willing to spend on goods.

Are you going to update the Tulsa list at the top of the page or not? You wanted input. I gave a lot, and it's been pushed under the rug. I would appreciate if you could update it, thanks.

Maybe if you hadn't come in out of nowhere acting like such an a** (and you still are), people would be more willing to do things for you.

[Spartan]

False. And again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Costco is almost always stand-alone and often in out-lying and even industrial areas. Trader Joe's can be in nicer centers, but so can almost any grocer. The large majority of their locations are not higher-end.

H&M is likely to have their one OKC location at Quail Springs, so draw your own conclusions from that.

It's funny that I usually side with Pete and against bchris, but I think bchris was just referring to how these retailers often support lifestyle centers. OKC doesn't have many of the usual suspects in lifestyle centers because we don't have any lifestyle centers, and the correlation between the type of development and tenant is undeniable. I've seen a lot of lifestyle centers with a Trader Joe's, but never have I consistently seen another grocer go into them.

The caveat to that, which you strongly reminded us, is that sometimes a market is so important to a retailer that they will go into substandard spaces to have a market presence. There's a really dumpy strip mall that has a Whole Foods on Chagrin Blvd in Cleveland (the Chagrin Valley is probably the wealthiest area of Ohio) that speaks to this parallel retail trend. What happened is Trader Joe's outbid them for an anchor space in the Eton Chagrin lifestyle center a block or two over.

Quail Springs is getting these tenants because it looks amazing on paper and reality offers nothing better, really.

[Spartan]

False. And again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Costco is almost always stand-alone and often in out-lying and even industrial areas. Trader Joe's can be in nicer centers, but so can almost any grocer. The large majority of their locations are not higher-end.

H&M is likely to have their one OKC location at Quail Springs, so draw your own conclusions from that.

It's funny that I usually side with Pete and against bchris, but I think bchris was just referring to how these retailers often support lifestyle centers. OKC doesn't have many of the usual suspects in lifestyle centers because we don't have any lifestyle centers, and the correlation between the type of development and tenant is undeniable.

The caveat to that, which you strongly reminded us, is that sometimes a market is so important to a retailer that they will go into substandard spaces to have a market presence. There's a really dumpy strip mall that has a Whole Foods on Chagrin Blvd in Cleveland that speaks to this parallel retail trend.

Quail Springs is getting these tenants because it looks amazing on paper and reality offers nothing better, really.

[Pete]

This has gone out of control and I take the blame.

I was calling out bchris02 because he absolutely drives me crazy, dating back a long ways. But, 1) I shouldn't be doing that as it sets a bad example; 2) for a new-ish person here I can see where reading posts by me (not knowing the history) seems to set the tone for addressing people a certain way; and 3) I could see why someone would think my comments were aimed at Tulsa or a Tulsa supporter, when in fact that wasn't the case. bchris02 has nothing to do with Tulsa.

So, I apologize for losing my composure and bickering with bchris.


Now, let's get back to being civil and respectful. Thanks.

[bchris02]

Pete,

I know all of this bitterness has to do with the original Chisholm Creek announcement and conflicting sources on whether or not the Costco deal was still alive. I admit that my consistent negative narrative regarding that was not based on facts but on the perception that Tulsa gets retailers first (which that perception is real, regardless of how true it is) and my own negativity. It was just by luck that I took the side that ended up being right. I didn't know anything.

I know you were a retail broker for OKC and you have real, reputable sources in the industry. This is personal for you being that your job was and is to sell OKC to prospective retailers. I apologize for behaving the way that I did.

[Pete]

^

I appreciate that but no need to apologize.

Let's please just move on.

[HOT ROD]

It's not that people are ONLY looking for high end retail, it is that OKC is a somewhat diminished market compared to other large cities its size why those stores get the most voice on OKC Talk. A large city should have a wide range of retail, not everything should be bargain oriented or cator only to families. A large city with a diverse population should have stores catoring to its population - those with money shouldn't HAVE to travel to another city to shop. I think that is the point more than anything.

We're not advocating OKC to have every store that Dallas has, but given our population, diversity, and economic status - and that all of those indecies are rapidly growing; most are surprised at the lack of quality retail options OKC has and the fact that a smaller metro appears to be a better choice (at least initially).

I think the next question is how do we change this perception? Does OKC people need to stop going to Dallas and instead shop online so the retailers will see the OKC presence and perhaps open up shop here? Do OKC people need to become even MORE active online petitioning retailiers they want to open shop here, and why? Does OKC city hall need to strongly consider a master plan for not only housing and building development but also retail and what type of retail zoning should go where and how that all ties into the city infrastructure (existing local density, transit options, civic beautification and placemaking, retail design requirements (particularly in heritage or entertainment districts), structured parking within the urban core, bonus credits to developers who adopt mixed use encouraging density at the core and key nodes, so on. ...

I believe all of the above needs to be at least discussed AND most of the above needs to be strongly considered. I challenge the Chamber to become more of an active participant not only focusing on business relocation and those moving to the city (particularly using the same tired, old rant about low cost of living), but instead promote the city's positives of being the #2 Energy Center, having positive marginal and disposable income (a key way to tie low cost of living without sounding like a cheap, undesirable place), visit and court retailiers at their hq along with conventions to take a LOCAL look at OKC (not just on paper), creatively use TIF and other incentives to bring retail WHILE also using the TIF and retail to solve the city's urban issues.

This last point is what has me (and likely Sid, JTF, Cuarto, and other Expats) so irked about the Clayco development. It appears as if Clayco is wanting to use the TIF to discount their construction costs without any immediate tangible benefit to the city. I would be all in favor of a TIF if it relocated power lines, and assisted with UNDERGROUND parking where the developer would restore the California grid as a pedestrian prominade with retail fronting both sides and along the fringes of the block. THIS (IMO, and likely theirs) is what we see in our (and other cities) and what we'd like to see start happening in OKC - this would go a million miles to change the city while also providing an incentive for dense development. We've made great strides from the OKC of the past (that's for sure), now it is time to launch forever forward from the small-time and think big and plan for the big urban city. ...

If you agree, then how do we get this message to those in power and with the most influence?

[josh]

While I was reading some of these posts in this thread, something occurred to me. I find it odd that the poorest metro region in the country, the Rio Grande Valley in Texas, has a Costco as well as a few other stores OKC doesn't yet have.

Is it just because the RGV is in "Texas"?

I mean the RGV has the same exact metro population as OKC, 1.3 million, but as I said, is the poorest metro region in the country.

Corpus Christi, situated between San Antonio and the Valley, is way more well known than the RGV and has more money than the RGV but with only a metro population of 500,000 doesn't have a Costco but they are very close to getting one it seems.

The point of my rant? Stop fretting over which city is more urban. Tulsa or Oklahoma City. Which city most resembles Dallas. Which city is more cosmopolitan. Which city has a bigger member. lol

The bottom line is all this is just economics and business and has nothing to do with perceptions or urban feel or how "Dallas" you are.

The RGV is not urban in ANY sense. It's not cosmopolitan in ANY sense. It's not diverse in ANY sense. Yet it has some of the stores you want.

F Costco or any business only cared about urban feel or cosmopolitan looks, the RGV would have no Costco, no anything.

It's people are poor, it's economy isn't great, it's growth is fueled by new births as more people leave the metro area than move to it.

Corpus is somewhat the same way. Though not as poor and with a better economy than most cities or metro areas its size.

Anyway, stop the useless bickering. It's just a money game that really desn't give too craps how urban or cosmopolitan you are.

[bradh]

Pete, did we (OKC) essentially trade Costco for Top Golf (assuming that's where the Costco was going to go, and Top Golf wasn't already looking elsewhere in town)?

[warreng88]

Pete, did we (OKC) essentially trade Costco for Top Golf (assuming that's where the Costco was going to go, and Top Golf wasn't already looking elsewhere in town)?

Not Pete, but TopGolf was always part of the plan of Chisholm Creek. aka Retail Explosion. If you look at the original post, you can see who was rumored to go in that area.

Here is the first post:

http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?...tail+explosion

[bchris02]

The St. Anthony's Healthplex went where Costco was originally supposed to go.

[bradh]

The St. Anthony's Healthplex went where Costco was originally supposed to go.

You sure about that? That thing was well under way before Costco I thought.

[bchris02]

You sure about that? That thing was well under way before Costco I thought.

Pete can confirm, but it's been said that Costco had a contract for that site and the deal stalled. St. Anthony's swooped in and took the location and then when Costco came back they could no longer get that location, so they decided to look to Tulsa.