LifeChurchTV

[jbrown84]

i just think it's a bit dishonest to say that it's only about the message. regardless of what i think of its theology... lifechurch is marketed like a brand. it markets branded bumper stickers, tee shirts, albums, etc. while you may argue that those are just witnessing tools, you can't deny that on these items themselves the brand is being marketed over the message. -M

you can't argue with that. they pretty much franchise themselves.

[jbrown84]

metro, i watched the "opening video" but I can't find the one of the ghost or whatever that's causing all the controversy.

[metro]

mmm and jbrown84 you bring some valid points. I can agree with you on some in fact believe it or not. But have either one of you ever attended a lifechurch.tv service or watched a complete online sermon? I know most people who are critical of the church, never have once! So to those people, how can you not judge yourself by the same standards? If someone was judging you, would you not want them to use fair standards when doing so? If they didn't know you, how could they judge you fairly? Regardless of how you look at it, lifechurch.tv has a successful method that reaches a modern world.

I had an interesting thought with all this "franchise" talk. Are denominational churches including Catholics not the same in principal, perhaps just not method? Let's think about it for a second. Most denominations I know, Baptist, Nazarene, Pentecostal Holiness, Assembly of God, etc. require their ministers to "tithe" their salaries to the denominational offices, not their local church. In addition, I'm not sure if the denomination requires money above and beyond that. Even if they don't , I know many "traditional churches" that do special offerings that go to the denomination on occasion throughout the year. Think of what it goes to, missionaries (good thing), but it also pays for tons of denominational positions (most of which make decent money and many have assistants, etc.), denominational materials and publications, denominational office buildings, denominational churches, bishops and other hierarchy, etc. Are denominations not acting as franchises?? This sure brings Luke 20:46-47 to mind.

Beware of these teachers of religious law! For they love to parade in flowing robes and have everyone bow to them as they walk in the marketplaces...But they shamelessly cheat widows out of their property..Because of this, their punishment will be greater.

Not saying my view is right or wrong on the subject, but I think it is interesting food for thought nonetheless. Just because a more modern approach is used by churches today, doesn't mean the principal of "franchisism" you are using isn't any different, just a different method in a modern world. From the scripture above, we see that "religious hierarchy" existed even in Jesus time.

[jbrown84]

metro, I have been to Life on several occasions. The Southern Baptist Convention requires no specific amount of money from local churches, and does not take the pastor's pay nor hire them. Each church is completely autonomous. You have churches like Henderson Hills that give very little to denominational entities, and churches like mine that choose to give quite a bit, while also doing our own ministries and missions. And both churches hire their own ministers, unlike many other protestant denominations as well as Catholics.

As far as franchising, what I am referring to is the way you take existing churches and advertise that they can become a local LifeChurch campus in their market. And then each church offers the exact same programs and style and has the same pastor on a big screen. Sounds a lot like franchised restaurants doesn't it? I still think LifeChurch does a lot of good things, I just have a few concerns here and there. I do think it is a good church overall and don't mean to be overly critical.

[Martin]

i had an interesting thought with all this "franchise" talk. are denominational churches including catholics not the same in principal, perhaps just not method? let's think about it for a second. most denominations i know, baptist, nazarene, pentecostal holiness, assembly of god, etc. require their ministers to "tithe" their salaries to the denominational offices, not their local church. in addition, i'm not sure if the denomination requires money above and beyond that. even if they don't , i know many "traditional churches" that do special offerings that go to the denomination on occasion throughout the year. think of what it goes to, missionaries (good thing), but it also pays for tons of denominational positions (most of which make decent money and many have assistants, etc.), denominational materials and publications, denominational office buildings, denominational churches, bishops and other hierarchy, etc. are denominations not acting as franchises??

i agree with you 100% here. scripture does not suggest church government beyond the congregational level. scripture suggests that each congregation is autonomously led by its own set of elders. (Titus 1:5-16; 1 Timothy 3:1-7; 5:17-19; 1 Peter 5:1-4) therefore, the idea of denominational (or 'franchise', in this case) offices is not based on scripture. this also suggests that pastor-led congregations are not in accordance with scripture. in fact, the very idea of denominations themselves is unscriptural. one should not strive to be baptist, nazarene, pentecostal, evangelical, etc but should simply strive to be a follower of christ. scripture tells us that there is just one church, one body... the one in which christ established.

i've been wanting to visit lifechurch for awhile... just to see firsthand how people behave, etc. while one isn't far away, my schedule is just too busy. professionally i have worked closely with similar churches, though. it's also been some time since i've listened to one of their sermons... how about you pick one out and i'll watch it through and come back here with what i think...

-M

[metro]

jbrown and mmm, thanks for being level headed and open to discussion. i appreciate that. jbrown, you will notice i didn't mention southern baptists, but just baptists. regardless of how the "southern baptists" operate, they are still operating like a franchise in some regards as well as every denomination. correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd be willing to say that ANY denomination or church would consider and possibly accept another church to merge with them IF they felt the other church was in agreement and the elders and members came to that consensus. despite that, as mmm said, the whole idea of denominationalism, etc is unscriptural. we are all to become "fully devoted followers of Christ" as part of lifechurch.tv's vision states.

mmm, fair enough, i have a sermon in mind actually and its a fairly recent one that way we're talking about recent information. let me find it and i'll post it back for you.

[metro]

I choose Week One of our current series, Urban Legends. I find it a powerful and relevant message.

Webcasts | LifeChurch.tv

You'll need to click week 1 and choose your internet connection speed. Thanks and happy viewing.

[jbrown84]

I'd be willing to say that ANY denomination or church would consider and possibly accept another church to merge with them IF they felt the other church was in agreement and the elders and members came to that consensus. despite that, as mmm said, the whole idea of denominationalism, etc is unscriptural. we are all to become "fully devoted followers of Christ" as part of lifechurch.tv's vision states.

I only used Southern Baptist because that is what I am and there is no just "Baptist" denomination. The difference as far as "franchising" goes is that there is no branding of logos, no singular pastor, no singular doctrinal guidelines. Among Southern Baptist churches you have very traditional ones like and you have very progressive ones and you have pastor-led ones and deacon-led ones and elder-led ones. Baptists have no creed. So the franchising aspect is only very loosely applied. Baptist isn't even in the name necessarily. My aunt and uncle are members of a Southern Baptist church in Wichita called River Community Church. And actually, a church can't just decide to become Southern Baptist. Only newly planted churches can be new Southern Baptist churches.

I'll give you that denominations aren't scriptural in that they aren't dictated by scripture, but there's nothing about them that goes against scripture. And don't forget that LifeChurch is part of a denomination, Evangelical Covenant.

[Martin]

sorry it took so long... so i viewed week one and will try to watch the next installment.

i agree with most of what was said, especially the idea that one's actions must reflect christ. i agree with the idea presented that christianity isn't about what is popular or what blends in with modern society. however, it's interesting to me that contrary to those words, lifechurch gears itself to be just those things; it strives to make itself relevent to the modern world more than making itself relevant to the word of god.

toward the end of the sermon, i felt that the focus was shifted too much toward appealing to the audience's emotions. the idea of lifting one's hands and being led with emotionally charged messages is a bit distressing to me. i would have loved to see the crowd in this part. i think it's a potentially dangerous proposition for people to base their faith on emotion. in large groups, it's easy for people to lose their identitiy and be swayed by a group's collective emotions. the basis for faith shouldn't be an emotional pang brought about by groupthink.

scripture tells us that 'faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of god.' (rom. 10:17) the greek word used for 'word' is logos. it's where we get the word for 'logic.' our faith comes by an appeal to our logic through the study of scripture. people often make decisions they otherwise would not make when they think with their emotions. it's why car salesmen and mortuary workers appeal to emotions when making a sale. if faith is based on emotion, then we feel far from god when we feel at our worst. it's therefore a better thing for faith to be based on logic than to base it off of emotion.

i don't want you to think that last criticism is targeted just to lifechurch... even those who are close to my own faith sometimes use emotion to motivate people a bit more than they sometimes should... just not to this extent, perhaps... but there are worse offenders, in my opinion.

like i say, i'll try to find some time to check out week 2 and i'll comment on that if there's anything relevant. -M

[jbrown84]

I have to agree with your concerns with emotion-based sermons/worship. It's something I've been warned about many times by some of the most mature Christians I know.

[jdsplaypin]

I agree mmm with the "hand-raising" issue... you shouldn't need to raise your hands to show your commitment, that should be brought about through your actions following the sermon. I always leave right after the sermon is finished.

[metro]

so basically you don't respect your elders or peers in service and leave before you are dismissed? especially when they often say please do not leave until we dismiss. This creates distractions for others and makes it more difficult for ushers, etc.

[Martin]

so basically you argue that it's judgmental for people to criticize lifechurch's worship style but then judge others for leaving early based on their own worship style preferences. sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

and i thought that lifechurch was about reaching people on their individual comfort levels... that is, i guess, until someone tries to leave during a part that makes them uncomfortable. -M

[jdsplaypin]

Wow, where to start. 1st my wife & i sit in the back of the church so noone is interupted. 2nd they have never implied that we shouldn't leave until dismissed. And 3rd how is leaving AFTER the sermon disrespectful to "my elders". Additionally, my wife & I leave as soon as possible b/c our son is in their daycare & being 2, doesn't exactly understand why mommy & daddy left him. Please think before you speak, especially if you are advocating a church that the general public is reading about... you aren't scoring brownie points.

[jbrown84]

I've never been to a service where they said "Please don't leave until you are dismissed."

[Easy180]

Wow, where to start. 1st my wife & i sit in the back of the church so noone is interupted. 2nd they have never implied that we shouldn't leave until dismissed. And 3rd how is leaving AFTER the sermon disrespectful to "my elders". Additionally, my wife & I leave as soon as possible b/c our son is in their daycare & being 2, doesn't exactly understand why mommy & daddy left him. Please think before you speak, especially if you are advocating a church that the general public is reading about... you aren't scoring brownie points.

Actually jd...I would think the folks in the daycare are probably glad you leave a little early with a two year old

[bandnerd]

As a person who actually worked with 2 year olds in church daycare, yes, please, if you can take your children early, then by all means do so!

I really don't see how leaving early affects anyone but those leaving. He stays for the important part, give the guy a break.

[Jesus Lied For You]

so basically you don't respect your elders or peers in service and leave before you are dismissed? especially when they often say please do not leave until we dismiss. This creates distractions for others and makes it more difficult for ushers, etc.

Should Metro's fellow "peers" stumble in their walk with God merely because he leaves early then I highly question their relationship with God to begin with.

[itsgallagher]

It is ok to use different things to get their attention. But don't call it church or a worship service. Christ threw out the money changers. It was the only time he got really angry.

[itsgallagher]

Catholics don't worship Mary. Where did you hear that?

[jbrown84]

They pray to Mary, indicating that she has the power to hear and answer them. They definitley give her a semi-divine status.

[itsgallagher]

We ask Mary to pray for us just like others ask for prayers from people around them.

[itsgallagher]

They pray to Mary, indicating that she has the power to hear and answer them. They definitley give her a semi-divine status.

Never heard of semi-divine status.

[jbrown84]

Yeah but Mary is dead.

[Jesus Lied For You]

Yeah but Mary is dead.

So is Jesus.