OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

[Jake]

People getting worked up over nothing. Again. Mountain out of a molehill.

[BDP]

Tulsa also has more of a big-city feel than Oklahoma City, Webb said.

“It seems more like the Dallas or Austin areas of Texas — more cosmopolitan, less rural,” he said.

This cracks me up, because 1) this is coming from a guy scouting COSTCO(!) locations and 2) this is where the Tulsa store is going:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0137...C2MsYsLj1w!2e0

[BDP]

This is a cop out in regards to Costco. Sprawl had NOTHING to do with it.

Well, in this case it seems that Costco IS the sprawl, or at least catering to it.

[Rover]

Keep telling yourself that. Jax and OKC have almost identical demographics and Jax has even more land area - but our urban density is 3X higher. As such, we have stores that might never come to OKC, and multiple locations for many stores that have only one location in OKC.

Putting one's head in the sand isn't the answer.

Keeping one's head in the clouds isn't either. This is a case you know NOTHING about. Costco location had NOTHING to do with OKC sprawl. Keep telling yourself you know better.

[bchris02]

Keep telling yourself that. Jax and OKC have almost identical demographics and Jax has even more land area - but our urban density is 3X higher. As such, we have stores that might never come to OKC, and multiple locations for many stores that have only one location in OKC.

Putting one's head in the sand isn't the answer.

I am sure Jacksonville, being fourth wheel in a coastal state with an overall positive perception has helped it get retailers that wouldn't even consider OKC or Oklahoma period. I doubt, for instance, there will ever be a full line Louis Vuitton or Tiffany & Co store in OKC or Tulsa, yet Jacksonville has them. In terms of urbanity, Jacksonville is ahead of OKC but its not like it blows it out of the water. Urbanists generally list out Jacksonville alongside Phoenix and OKC as being the least urban major cities, all sharing similar problems. I am sure if OKC was in Texas, it would have retailers it currently doesn't have simply because its in Texas and not Oklahoma. It would not, however, get those retailers before Dallas, Houston, Austin, or San Antonio. Likewise, I am sure Miami, Tampa, and Orlando get big name retailers before Jacksonville does.

I do agree with you though that putting one's head in the sand is never going to be the answer. OKC still has a significant perception problem on the national stage which Steve and Webb's comments bring to light. Here is another quote in the chat this morning.

Steve Lackmeyer 11:58 a.m. Earlier Michael asked the following question: "Good story by Brianna about retailers picking Tulsa over OKC. Although I don't believe that's always the case because we have added plenty of retailers that Tulsa doesn't have and likely won't get. But my question comes in regards to the statement one of the Vice Presidents made about, Tulsa having a big city feel to it compared to OKC... What in the world was he thinking? It's statements like that, that would make me not want to step foot in their store."

Steve Lackmeyer 11:58 a.m. Brianna's answer: "The Costco executive’s comments were pretty off-the cuff. I was surprised by his frankness, but also found it refreshing. The guy also told me he grew up in Western Oklahoma, so he was very familiar with the market. He said he liked the old oil money feel of Tulsa, which I can see. Like it or not, this is how we are perceived by some outsiders."

I agree completely with Steve when he said "Change will require an aggressive effort by city and civic leadership to address the large swaths in vacant land that exist in the urban core - especially in Midtown, Film Row, Farmers Market and along Automobile Alley and Western Avenue." I think that is a great place to start. In addition, density and developing a "big city feel" will never happen if OKC keeps tearing down existing building stock for new development rather than developing the large swaths of surface parking and grass lots.

[BDP]

I agree completely with Steve when he said "Change will require an aggressive effort by city and civic leadership to address the large swaths in vacant land that exist in the urban core - especially in Midtown, Film Row, Farmers Market and along Automobile Alley and Western Avenue." I think that is a great place to start. In addition, density and developing a "big city feel" will never happen if OKC keeps tearing down existing building stock for new development rather than developing the large swaths of surface parking and grass lots.

I agree, but I hope that a Costco never ends up in any of those places, nor should that have anything to do with wanting to address the large swaths of land that exist in the urban core. Nothing would ruin the great atmosphere developing in those districts than the presence of a large national discount retailer.

[bchris02]

I agree, but I hope that a Costco never ends up in any of those places, nor should that have anything to do with wanting to address the large swaths of land that exist in the urban core. Nothing would ruin the great atmosphere developing in those districts than the presence of a large national discount retailer.

Completely agree. Costco belongs on Memorial Rd or NW Expressway plain and simple. If they tried to come into the core, I think that would be something to fight against unless they could find a way to make it urban.

[Rover]

I agree, but I hope that a Costco never ends up in any of those places, nor should that have anything to do with wanting to address the large swaths of land that exist in the urban core. Nothing would ruin the great atmosphere developing in those districts than the presence of a large national discount retailer.

Right. This is where the writer was lazy. This broad brush reasoning was inane. Reasons for locating vary. This was a poor write up and explanation of why things are or are not happening. VERY LAZY reporting and Steve is just towing the company line.

[Urbanized]

The term is actually "TOE the line," not "TOW the line." Sorry; couldn't help myself. It's a personal pet peeve. Now back to your regularly-scheduled programming.

[Video Expert]

Steve said this in his chat today.

Steve Lackmeyer 11:33 a.m. I think Brianna did a great job with that story getting answers to questions asked by a lot of folks. As she reported, Oklahoma City is not losing out with every desired retailer. But there are enough big name retailers choosing a far smaller market like Tulsa that the question is worth asking - why does Costco pick Tulsa over OKC? And now we have an answer - one folks don't like. But in the game of business, perception is as important as reality and Oklahoma City has a problem thanks to its sprawl. Can we reverse this trend? You bet. But it will require an aggressive effort by city and civic leadership to address the large swaths in vacant land that exist in the urban core - especially in Midtown, Film Row, Farmers Market and along Automobile Alley and Western Avenue.

Steve Lackmeyer 11:51 a.m. I think Tulsa has done a better job at creating an urban perception of itself, and this is something Oklahoma City needs to work on.

So we now have an answer that "folks don't like??" It seems to me that many people have criticized the article (and the answer) because whether intentional or not, the question posed to the Costco rep was based on a false premise from the outset. Costco actually never "picked Tulsa over OKC" at all. They simply weren't able to close on the land they had selected as their first location of choice...Memorial and Western in Oklahoma City. And so they moved on to Plan B, which in this case was Tulsa. The Costco representative was never asked about this and that's why some have taken issue with the story as a whole. And had that issue been addressed, obviously the story's narrative is completely different. If OKC's demographics are so terrible and Tulsa's so great as the Costco rep alleges, then why did Costco try and locate in OKC first to begin with?? There's your story.

And I guess we all also supposed to believe Oklahoma City is losing out to some big name retailers like Costco to smaller markets like Tulsa because Oklahoma City "has a problem thanks to its sprawl"...all while Costco's Tulsa store will be located only a half a mile from the Bixby city limits at 103rd and S. Memorial. It's irony at its finest!

[Tigerguy]

If I had a penny for every time I've shopped at one of the stores listed above, or had a desire to see them enter our market...I wouldn't have very many pennies. Off the top of my head, I know there would be four, then throw in however many for each time I've been to the Warren. Yes, part of that speakes to what does (or doesn't) appeal to me, but the fact is that whether a store comes here first or not isn't going to make or break this city. I get all of the stuff about perceptions and whatnot, but there are a lot of people that need to get a grip, methinks. Ooooh, Costco's opening in Tulsa first. Ooooh, [insert store here] chose OKC first. Good for the sake of novelty and expanded choices, but that novelty isn't going to last forever.

The presnce of a national retailer doesn't make one city better than the one that lacks that retailer. There's more this city can do to improve its image than attract some new store here.

[ZYX2]

This cracks me up, because 1) this is coming from a guy scouting COSTCO(!) locations and 2) this is where the Tulsa store is going:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0137...C2MsYsLj1w!2e0

To be fair, (not that it really changes your point) that area has changed significantly since those pictures were taken.

[Just the facts]

And I guess we all also supposed to believe Oklahoma City is losing out to some big name retailers like Costco to smaller markets like Tulsa because Oklahoma City "has a problem thanks to its sprawl"...all while Costco's Tulsa store will be located only a half a mile from the Bixby city limits at 103rd and S. Memorial. It's irony at its finest!

Nearly every home in metro Tulsa will be with 14 miles of their store. If they built on Memorial/Penn in OKC what percentage of metro-OKC addresses would be within 14 miles? The answer is sprawl. You make decisions and you live with it.

[Just the facts]

If I had a penny for every time I've shopped at one of the stores listed above, or had a desire to see them enter our market...I wouldn't have very many pennies. Off the top of my head, I know there would be four, then throw in however many for each time I've been to the Warren. Yes, part of that speakes to what does (or doesn't) appeal to me, but the fact is that whether a store comes here first or not isn't going to make or break this city. I get all of the stuff about perceptions and whatnot, but there are a lot of people that need to get a grip, methinks. Ooooh, Costco's opening in Tulsa first. Ooooh, [insert store here] chose OKC first. Good for the sake of novelty and expanded choices, but that novelty isn't going to last forever.

The presnce of a national retailer doesn't make one city better than the one that lacks that retailer. There's more this city can do to improve its image than attract some new store here.

Let me guess - you are a Walmart shopper.

[Pete]

So we now have an answer that "folks don't like??" It seems to me that many people have criticized the article (and the answer) because whether intentional or not, the question posed to the Costco rep was based on a false premise from the outset. Costco actually never "picked Tulsa over OKC" at all. They simply weren't able to close on the land they had selected as their first location of choice...Memorial and Western in Oklahoma City. And so they moved on to Plan B, which in this case was Tulsa. The Costco representative was never asked about this and that's why some have taken issue with the story as a whole. And had that issue been addressed, obviously the story's narrative is completely different. If OKC's demographics are so terrible and Tulsa's so great as the Costco rep alleges, then why did Costco try and locate in OKC first to begin with?? There's your story.

And I guess we all also supposed to believe Oklahoma City is losing out to some big name retailers like Costco to smaller markets like Tulsa because Oklahoma City "has a problem thanks to its sprawl"...all while Costco's Tulsa store will be located only a half a mile from the Bixby city limits at 103rd and S. Memorial. It's irony at its finest!

100% correct.

[Zuplar]

You forgot the third, in my opinion most likely, option - Walmart's cheap.

Yep, most times they are cheapest. And if for some reason they aren't the cheapest it's only because the other place put it on sale to try and compete with Walmart. Fact is when you go to Walmart, you can have a reasonable expectation that you are getting a low price, or very close to it, meaning you are never going to go there and pay 30% more for an item than somewhere else. Because of this I am a Walmart shopper, and dare I say, I like Walmart. I love competition and that's about the only reason I care if Costco comes, but even if they do I doubt I shop there.

[Zuplar]

Let me guess - you are a Walmart shopper.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Video Expert]

Nearly every home in metro Tulsa will be with 14 miles of their store. If they built on Memorial/Penn in OKC what percentage of metro-OKC addresses would be within 14 miles? The answer is sprawl. You make decisions and you live with it.

There were obviously enough addresses close to Memorial and Western that they chose that location first to begin with. Houston is the very definition of "sprawl" and they have like 9 Costcos. Time to find another "Boogie Man."

[bchris02]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

There is nothing wrong with liking Wal-Mart and being happy with that and not desiring anything else. Different people have different priorities. Some people love Wal-Mart and others dislike it for one reason or another. It would be really interesting to see however how many Wal-Mart shoppers in OKC shop there because they prefer it vs how many reluctantly do so because there are so few other options.

In a city where Wal-Mart has 60+% of the marketshare (most other cities its in the 30% range at highest) I am sure a sizable group shop there out of necessity and will jump ship when they have an alternative.

[Just the facts]

There were obviously enough addresses close to Memorial and Western that they chose that location first to begin with. Houston is the very definition of "sprawl" and they have like 9 Costcos. Time to find another "Boogie Man."

Sprawl is one thing and yes Houston has it by the barrel full, but there are different levels of sprawl. Even with Houston's sprawl it is still way more dense than OKC's sprawl. Costco is not a store that would fit well in a truly walkable urban city center anyhow, if for no other reason than urban dwellers don't have the space to store 24 rolls of paper towels.

[Just the facts]

Let me guess - you are a Walmart shopper.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

It is, but that is a different subject.

[Video Expert]

Costco is not a store that would fit well in a truly walkable urban city center anyhow, if for no other reason than urban dwellers don't have the space to store 24 rolls of paper towels.

Nor would they have the room to transport pretty much any sizable merchandise on the train/bus/bike ride home.

[stlokc]

OK, so I was one of the first to call out this article as having flaws. I still think that's the case, but hey, Brianna Bailey is a fine reporter and she'll be doing a follow up. Bygones are bygones, that's been "cussed and discussed," as my grandmother used to say. So be it.

I think a lot of people are going overboard on this whole subject of the Costco executive's comments about Tulsa being "more cosmopolitan" than OKC. And intuitively, what seems to be getting some people in a twist is the thought that somehow it feeds in to some hugely important perception problem regarding OKC vs. Tulsa.

Let me just say this from my perch in St. Louis: this is such an unimportant debate if your main worry is the perception of our home town. There are 58 people in my office and I can guarantee you that the other 57 have never once thought about whether there is a Costco in Oklahoma City or Tulsa or who gets one first. I can further guarantee that the other 57 have no concept of whether Tulsa is seen as "more cosmopolitan" than OKC or not. There aren't more than a handful of people in St. Louis that have ever been to the NewsOk website to see those comments. People outside of OKC and Tulsa not only don't know this supposed "perception," they don't care. The only people that care are those in OKC that somehow see one store or another as some sort of validation and probably some misguided folks in Tulsa that see it the other way around.

I will say this: All 58 people in my office have heard of the Thunder and quite a few are fans.

Do I wish OKC had a Costco? I guess so. Sure. Why not? For OKC's sake and the quality of life, the more choices the better. And I do wish there were more high-end stores, Nordstrom, Saks and the like, for the benefit of those in OKC. But from a "national perception" issue, I bet at least some of the 57 others in my office probably assume OKC has those stores. If they ever think about it, which is highly unlikely. I'll take the Thunder and the GE Research Center and a revitalized downtown all day every day, thank you very much.

You want a true "national perception" problem? Try living 20 minutes from Ferguson, MO and spending your life under the erroneous blanket of the yearly "Most Dangerous City" rankings when the majority of this metro area is as safe as anywhere in central Oklahoma. That's a perception problem.

[Rover]

Nearly every home in metro Tulsa will be with 14 miles of their store. If they built on Memorial/Penn in OKC what percentage of metro-OKC addresses would be within 14 miles? The answer is sprawl. You make decisions and you live with it.

And you still don't know squat as to why they actually moved on to Tulsa. You reject everything that doesn't fit your pre-ordained narrative.

[Rover]

The term is actually "TOE the line," not "TOW the line." Sorry; couldn't help myself. It's a personal pet peeve. Now back to your regularly-scheduled programming.