First National Center

[BoulderSooner]

I think most know I have never been a cynical person and always try to see both sides of any issue.

But with the recent happenings around the Preftakes Block, I an now 100% convinced that demolitions will never be stopped.

And even if we got some new committee or council members who wanted to take a firm stance, I don't think they would be successful. Due to the well-established track record and precedents, any owner that was denied demolition would almost certainly find relief in court, making an easy case for inequitable treatment.


So, where does that leave us? I'll tell you where: Completely at the mercy of what property owners choose to do.

Considering we are dealing with an ownership group that seems to still involve a recently convicted felon who is being sued all over the place and generally regarded as a world-class sleazeball, I'm not going to assume anything.

I think you would see the city ed that building before a First National (tower) demo were to happen

[Pete]

Agreed. Stage Center was very polarizing, despite it's architectural significance. I don't know of anybody who hates First National and would be glad to see it gone.

With demolitions, you only need one person who wants it gone, and that's the owner.

All this talk about what the public wants has already been demonstrated to be meaningless, regardless of which side of the issue they may be on.

[Pete]

I think you would see the city ed that building before a First National (tower) demo were to happen

I would hope so.


It probably is the one and only building in OKC I think is relatively safe.

[hoya]

Ask Steve or Urbanized.

I believe one was E.L. Gaylord.

The way to influence powerful people is to draw attention to it when they do something unpopular. If they can sit there and be quiet "powerful people" and nobody will say who they are then there's no backlash against them. On the other hand if someone will drag their name through the mud and has their picture plastered all over the place then they may rethink things.

I don't even know what Nicholas Preftakes looks like. But if Channel 4 did a story on the 10:00 news about how he drove out all his tenants and purposefully let his historic buildings deteriorate for years so that there'd be no resistance, you can bet there would be a lot more phone calls to the city council about this issue.

[Pete]

^

Except everyone knows that Preftakes is not the one behind any of this and absolutely no one in OKC is going to take on the person and company who is.

Same way with the Rainey Williams ruse at Stage Center and who he is fronting for.


Sadly, things have not changed much in OKC in this respect.

[hoya]

With Devon I could see that. But OG&E? I don't think anybody would be afraid of them.

[Pete]

With Devon I could see that. But OG&E? I don't think anybody would be afraid of them.

Pete Delaney is chairman of the Chamber of Commerce.

He is probably the second most powerful man in OKC, as much for his alliances as anything else.

[Spartan]

I think most know I have never been a cynical person and always try to see both sides of any issue.

But with the recent happenings around the Preftakes Block, I an now 100% convinced that demolitions will never be stopped.

And even if we got some new committee or council members who wanted to take a firm stance, I don't think they would be successful. Due to the well-established track record and precedents, any owner that was denied demolition would almost certainly find relief in court, making an easy case for inequitable treatment.


So, where does that leave us? I'll tell you where: Completely at the mercy of what property owners choose to do.

Considering we are dealing with an ownership group that seems to still involve a recently convicted felon who is being sued all over the place and generally regarded as a world-class sleazeball, I'm not going to assume anything.

My feeling is that those who portend to believe our historic landmarks aren't widely in danger, are actually those who benefit from a singular landmark being demolished at the time. If you aren't benefiting there, it's hard to deny we have a preservation crisis.

In my opinion for PO, this is like a Bob Stoops-Clemson kind of moment. Something has to change or be replaced with all the landmarks that preservationists in this state have failed.

[jn1780]

That thing about the Skirvin is that wasn't demolished and is a great success story.

As for the Stage Center, In a perfect world it would have never existed. It was after all approved by the same "great minds" that also thought it was great idea to demolished all the grand historical buildings in that same decade. Probably should have kept the Stage Center as a memorial to the Pei Plan.

[Spartan]

The reason the Skirvin isnt relevant: Urban renewal took a pause in the 90s and 00s just because we were economically stagnant.

[Jim Kyle]

Ask Steve or Urbanized.

I believe one was E.L. Gaylord.

While I have no knowledge either way of his involvement, I did work for his father for a while in the mid-50s, long enough to become familiar with family traditions, and I do remember how the family pushed adoption of the Pei Plan -- to the everlasting detriment of the CBD. Check the archives for that drum-beating!

The OKC Chamber, also, has a long record of pushing for "progress" regardless of the cost to history...

[Jim Kyle]

Also the destruction of the Colcord Mansion was almost directly responsible for the city creating the first preservation committee if I remember correctly. Different time and place.

Time, yes, but apparently the place has not changed much. When the committee's recommendations/decisions are 100% overridden, it serves no useful purpose whatsoever. The single purpose I see--providing the appearance of reasonable control--is not at all useful, but rather counter-productive to the goal by appearing to be a solution, yet retaining actual control exactly where it originally resided.

Perhaps we need Donald Trump to become interested...

[Spartan]

Re: All

I'll throw another consideration (hopefully) into the spotlight: This FNC episode as a red herring to distract from the Preftakes/Devon situation.

[catcherinthewry]

Re: All

I'll throw another consideration (hopefully) into the spotlight: This FNC episode as a red herring to distract from the Preftakes/Devon situation.

Wow! And I thought your "if hotel black/auto garage get demoed, then FNC is next" was a giant leap. You never disappoint, Spartan.

[Pete]

Well, I think we can all agree that the FNC snafu is somehow Larry Nichols' fault.

[Plutonic Panda]

That's a bit of a stretch there JTF. First off, because of demo projects like that, the country is now more focused on preservation. Not to mention the fact that when that structure was torn down, it wasn't seen in the same light as it is now. It was a terrible shame to lose, but there's a LOT of story behind that structure's demolition besides just a picture of it.

And that whole post about not moving back here.....Ill do a happy dance that yet another tea party member wont be in Oklahoma, but if you don't want to move here, why do you troll a forum solely devoted to development here?

Probably because he cares about what is going on here. Do you realize how many people post on this forum that don't live here?

[kevinpate]

Some of you will think me nuts.
Some of you will think me nerd.

Either way, go watch The Matrix trilogy scene between Neo and The Architect.

Then think back over a few threads here.

Bottom line is OKC has always had its Architect. OKC is still at its second or maybe third Neo though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3OXs_5AD2A

[hoya]

Some of you will think me nuts.
Some of you will think me nerd.

Either way, go watch The Matrix trilogy scene between Neo and The Architect.

Then think back over a few threads here.

Bottom line is OKC has always had its Architect. OKC is still at its second or maybe third Neo though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3OXs_5AD2A

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra5-H9ZBS1U

Highway crossing frog. You're so right kevinpate. Ergo. Vis a vis. Concordantly.

[gopokes88]

Keep in mind the economics of tearing down FNC aren't there, especially if it were to be torn down for another tower. Be cheaper and less controversial. That's the point being missed about Preftakes and unfairly compared compared to FNC.

[Pete]

Keep in mind the economics of tearing down FNC aren't there, especially if it were to be torn down for another tower. Be cheaper and less controversial. That's the point being missed about Preftakes and unfairly compared compared to FNC.

I don't think this is true.

The current estimated sales price of around $10 million for FNC would mean the cost per acre for just the dirt is very close to what was paid for the 499 Sheridan project.

And it would almost certainly be cheaper to build new on the FNC site than to renovate the tower, try to demo part and add parking, bridge all that together, etc.

[gopokes88]

I don't think this is true.

The current estimated sales price of around $10 million for FNC would mean the cost per acre for just the dirt is very close to what was paid for the 499 Sheridan project.

And it would almost certainly be cheaper to build new on the FNC site than to renovate the tower, try to demo part and add parking, bridge all that together, etc.

Renovation estimates were around $80 million. The shorter small Clayco towers are $500 million for 4 or $125 each. Cheaper and less controversial to renovate FNC is they are going to tear it down to build an office tower of the same size.

[Pete]

Less controversial for sure, but FNC would be at least $100 million to renovate just the tower, and that doesn't include parking which would also have to be added.

Also, the small floorplates, low ceilings and tons of columns in FNC makes it unappealing for modern office space, so it almost has to be a hotel or residential. If someone wants office space on that site, the current tower will not work no matter how much money you throw at it.

[SouthOKC]

I don't think this is true.

The current estimated sales price of around $10 million for FNC would mean the cost per acre for just the dirt is very close to what was paid for the 499 Sheridan project.

And it would almost certainly be cheaper to build new on the FNC site than to renovate the tower, try to demo part and add parking, bridge all that together, etc.

Pete, I respect what you’re saying here but I think you’re wrong on this one.

I commented in the the 499 Sheridan thread about the power of OKCtalk in the OKC community. With the Stage Center and Hotel Black it’s debatable on the importance in OKC’s short history. Although, I’m in favor of saving the Hotel Black and pushing the DDRC to fight Devon on the proposed changes.

First National Center is a different beast. Things are changing in Oklahoma City and a new generation is coming into its own. That’s evident by the power of social media, sit-in/occupy movements across the country, gentrification, urban renewal, walkable cities, H&8th, etc… For all the knocks against millennials there is a passion in my generation for preserving history, repurposing materials that have been used, and concern for future generations.

There is power to change and I think the possibility of FNC being torn down would simply be a rallying cry to a future generation that loves it’s history and city.

[gopokes88]

Less controversial for sure, but FNC would be at least $100 million to renovate just the tower, and that doesn't include parking which would also have to be added.

Also, the small floorplates of FNC makes it unappealing for modern office space, so it almost has to be a hotel or residential. If someone wants office space on that site, the current tower will not work no matter how much money you throw at it.

I guess what I'm trying to say if FNC was going to be swapped out for another high rise it will most likely be cheaper and less controversial to renovate. Rather then acquire, complicated demo becuase of th asbestos, and build a new tower.
Preftakes is being leveled for a tower. They aren't apples to apples comparisons.

[Pete]

I guess what I'm trying to say if FNC was going to be swapped out for another high rise it will most likely be cheaper and less controversial to renovate. Rather then acquire, complicated demo becuase of th asbestos, and build a new tower.
Preftakes is being leveled for a tower. They aren't apples to apples comparisons.

And I'm respectfully disagreeing with you.

If someone wanted to build an office tower with parking on the FNC site, it would likely be cheaper, faster, and easier to get high rents if they scraped the whole complex.