First National Center

[BoulderSooner]

Pete, I can tell you the bad taste in my mouth over the last 2 months is from exactly what you just described. Clayco, 499 Sheridan, etc... are just the physical manifestations of what I feel has become a corrupt state and city government being run 100% by members of the oil establishment and is functionally no different than Putin's Russia or the elite ruling class in The Ukraine. It has turned me off from ever wanting to move back to Oklahoma. As a self-described right wing tea partier it scares the **** out of me that my fellow travels have been duped into not only following this path, but championing it. Turning the public realm over to private interest is NOT what I signed up for.

And congrats full tin foil hat status has been achieved

[BoulderSooner]

Not to dismiss your concerns, or water them down, but this is a microcosm of what's been happening all over the USA in the past few years/decades, and I'm getting more and more disgusted by it, but don't see a way out. I addressed it in another thread (and need to reply to Sid's reply), but the "people" don't matter in the USA any longer, pretty much *everything* is being controlled by the rich and super-rich (yes, I know it has been that way for a while, but now it's so nakedly out in the open). There are a few folks in OKC that have the power and $$$$$$ that they can do whatever they want, and nobody is accountable because nobody else has the power. We can elect new folks to the city council and other offices, but how long will it be before they become the tools of the $$$$? That's about all we can do now, disheartening at best, horrible at worst, but I see no way out of this situation here in OKC and the USA - the people cannot turn into the moneyed, powered elite, and the moneyed, powered elite just keep right on going. If anybody has any suggestions on how to fix this, let's hear 'em!

This *might* be a solution (long-term, most likely, if even that), but check out the map - no members of the organization are from OK (1 of 10 states that don't have members). Only elected officials can be members, so maybe we find out if there are any "progressive" elected officials in OKC and ask them to join?

LocalProgress

From the Cities a Progressive Movement Will Rise*|*Nick Licata

And the call for socialism. Yeah.

[Just the facts]

And the call for socialism. Yeah.

Says the guy blindly falling into a dictatorship hiding behind a puppet democracy.

[bchris02]

Pete, I can tell you the bad taste in my mouth over the last 2 months is from exactly what you just described. Clayco, 499 Sheridan, etc... are just the physical manifestations of what I feel has become a corrupt state and city government being run 100% by members of the oil establishment and is functionally no different than Putin's Russia or the elite ruling class in The Ukraine. It has turned me off from ever wanting to move back to Oklahoma. As a self-described right wing tea partier it scares the **** out of me that my fellow travels have been duped into not only following this path, but championing it. Turning the public realm over to private interest is NOT what I signed up for.

This would be another long discussion that would completely derail the thread, but for most Americans, conservative, right-wing tea partyism and new urbanism are incompatible. Conservatism is about preserving the post-World War II American dream i.e. the suburban lifestyle and values that dominated American culture from the 1950s through the 1980s. There is a reason most conservatives prefer suburbs and rural areas and most liberals prefer cities. New Urbanism is seen as one in the same with liberalism.

[BoulderSooner]

Right. New urbanism. = more govt control/interference. "Right wing tea party" is the opposite of that

[Pete]

Reminder that several City Council spots go to election in just two months.

This is a great time to call out the City Council on issues like these and make them take a public stand, then vote accordingly.

All new TIF's, TIF allocations and committee appointments have to be approved by the council.

[dankrutka]

There is nothing that could be proposed that would merit taking down First National. Nothing. There are plenty of other spots in OKC to build. OKC isn't NYC.

[Just the facts]

Right. New urbanism. = more govt control/interference. "Right wing tea party" is the opposite of that

It is interesting you say that because in reality New Urbanism is the local free-market solution and modern Euclidean zoning is the "more govt control/interference" option. New Urbanism doesn't regulate land use. All it does is protect the public realm (relationship to the street). If you don't believe me go look at OKC's current zoning and land use code and compare it to the SmartCode and then ask yourself which you would rather live under.

SmartCode Central

As further proof - all those old building being torn down in OKC were built before OKC had a zoning code and government regulation (or at least minimal by today's standard). How is that the old stuff you seem to hate was built without government interference and the new stuff you love is riddled with government regulation, and in the case of the Clayco development - paid for with a big heaping shovel full of tax dollars. You have become so blind you don't even know what you believe in anymore.

...and no, I am not sorry this time for derailing the thread because this is the root cause for a lot that is wrong now.

[Bob Loblaw]

Pete, please do put that quote in the header - that's awesome - we're not doing our civic duty IMO if we're not questioning our elected leaders (at all levels) to make sure that they're accountable for their plans and actions (or inactions)

shawnw, no more leases in FNC means all of FNC - so Cafe 7, the Tinder Box, Dr. Hirsch and Saints Metro Medical, Tommy & Leigh and the nail ladies on 7, lawyers, architects, engineers, oil companies, state agencies - all gone-zo, not all at once but there'll be a slow exodus until there's no one left

jn1780, the FNC land isn't all that large? It takes up one-half of the entire city block bounded by Robinson/Broadway and Main/Park - it's HUGE! and smack in the center of all the other downtown buildings - maybe you're only thinking of the FNC as the Tower and forgetting about the rest of the building?

For the most part, I like Steve and his info - there's few other sources out there for info on downtown OKC - but I also know enough not to take his info as the gospel - I have no doubt he gets a lot of very good information from trusted sources - but I'm also sure he gets played every now and then and fed misinformation as many of us do in our daily jobs - it's up to us to decide what's wheat and what's chaff - I think he got played on the Preftakes Block thing but so what, I'm not all that torn up about the Bus Station or Hotel Black - I will be torqued about the First National though so I hope he's not being fed propaganda on the FNC

Personally, I don't think the First National Tower will ever get demolished - it's too grand a structure and too much a keystone for downtown OKC to suffer that indignity - but it needs a LOT of TLC right now - heck, I was in there yesterday and only one of the four elevators to the top half of the tower was in working condition (which is exactly the same as it has been for months now) - it is my hope that the tower gets refurbished for at least the 2000's and restored to glory, whether it be as a hotel, housing, office or all of the above

However, a good portion of the remainder of the FNC I think should and will get torn down - I don't know much about the East building other than it's old and decrepit and the Center building is worse - who knows what will replace it/them - parking garage, modern office space, retail, your guess is as good as mine

I spent a lot of time in the FNC, especially the Tower, for many many years - she needs a lot of love - I hope that she gets it

Bob

[PhiAlpha]

Reminder that several City Council spots go to election in just two months.

This is a great time to call out the City Council on issues like these and make them take a public stand, then vote accordingly.

All new TIF's, TIF allocations and committee appointments have to be approved by the council.

My concern, like those of many others here, is that too few people care enough to make any kind of stand loud enough to make a difference. Everyone that reads this board could write a letter to the mayor, their city council person, the ddrc and even Larry nichols, Hines, Pickard, and every board member at Devon, but would that be enough to make any kind of difference. How do we get more people to give a rip about this?

[PhiAlpha]

Pete, I can tell you the bad taste in my mouth over the last 2 months is from exactly what you just described. Clayco, 499 Sheridan, etc... are just the physical manifestations of what I feel has become a corrupt state and city government being run 100% by members of the oil establishment and is functionally no different than Putin's Russia or the elite ruling class in The Ukraine. It has turned me off from ever wanting to move back to Oklahoma. As a self-described right wing tea partier it scares the **** out of me that my fellow travels have been duped into not only following this path, but championing it. Turning the public realm over to private interest is NOT what I signed up for.

Though you make some good points, in this comment and in most of your posts on urbanism, this goes way overboard.

[Bob Loblaw]

I know the current owners were wanting people out of the tower (west section) because any sale would be to someone who planned a massive redevelopment, and it was advantageous to market the property as ready for that process.

But now that things are in limbo, I can't imagine why they would want to run off the few remaining rent-paying tenants. Some income is better than none.

Purely a guess on my part, but I suspect that they want the place vacated because if and when a deal ever gets made, having it sitting vacant would facilitate a quicker sale - the new owner(s) could close quickly and get started on the turnaround as opposed to having to wait weeks/months/years for leases to expire and tenants to move - a potential huge selling point if you're a developer looking to refurbish/restore the place vs being a landlord while you wait for everyone to leave

Another guess on my part - I suspect it's a lot more cost effective with the current occupancy rate to just padlock the doors, turn off the utilities and pay the property taxes each year than it is to keep the place open for those few remaining rent-paying tenants - I was always told the first rule of getting out of a hole is to quit digging......

Bob

[Pete]

There is nothing that could be proposed that would merit taking down First National. Nothing. There are plenty of other spots in OKC to build. OKC isn't NYC.

You could say the exact same thing for Hotel Black.

And the Skirvin, which people in the know say was precariously close to demolition due to the will of a few important civic leaders.

[bchris02]

You could say the exact same thing for Hotel Black.

And the Skirvin, which people in the know say was precariously close to demolition due to the will of a few important civic leaders.

You are right. Downtown OKC has enough surface parking and grassy lots that there really isn't any excuse for demolishing anything at all. If I was playing SimCity, I would place the 499 Sheridan development instead on the southwest corner of Walker and Sheridan on the surface parking. Either that or fit everything in the way KanyeMo posted in that thread.

[Pete]

My concern, like those of many others here, is that too few people care enough to make any kind of stand loud enough to make a difference. Everyone that reads this board could write a letter to the mayor, their city council person, the ddrc and even Larry nichols, Hines, Pickard, and every board member at Devon, but would that be enough to make any kind of difference. How do we get more people to give a rip about this?

I know in my case, I plan to keep exposing hypocrisy and misinformation and the circumvention of the public process.

I also have some specific ideas for changes that can be driven by the City Council, and I hope to not only publish them (with feedback from the people here) but take then directly to members of the Council individually.

I'll have more on all this very soon... Many discussions and research happening behind the scenes.

[BoulderSooner]

You are right. Downtown OKC has enough surface parking and grassy lots that there really isn't any excuse for demolishing anything at all. If I was playing SimCity, I would place the 499 Sheridan development instead on the southwest corner of Walker and Sheridan on the surface parking. Either that or fit everything in the way KanyeMo posted in that thread.

But this isn't sim city. This is private development and ownership

[Bob Loblaw]

Excellent shots of the three different buildings that comprise the FNC - thanks Pete!

Bob

[OkieMike]

It is interesting you say that because in reality New Urbanism is the local free-market solution and modern Euclidean zoning is the "more govt control/interference" option. New Urbanism doesn't regulate land use. All it does is protect the public realm (relationship to the street). If you don't believe me go look at OKC's current zoning and land use code and compare it to the SmartCode and then ask yourself which you would rather live under.

SmartCode Central

As further proof - all those old building being torn down in OKC were built before OKC had a zoning code and government regulation (or at least minimal by today's standard). How is that the old stuff you seem to hate was built without government interference and the new stuff you love is riddled with government regulation, and in the case of the Clayco development - paid for with a big heaping shovel full of tax dollars. You have become so blind you don't even know what you believe in anymore.

...and no, I am not sorry this time for derailing the thread because this is the root cause for a lot that is wrong now.

^^^

100% agree with this. "New Urbanism" isn't political, it's the anti-political. I may not agree with everything about it and may not agree with Kerry ALL of the time, but what he is saying in this post is 100% correct.

[OKCRT]

They can only implode the FNC if they promise to build 2 40-50 story buildings . Otherwise,we will have to go down there in shifts and make a human ring around the buildings.

But seriously,who thinks that there is even the slightest possibility of the FNC coming down? Not me.

[Pete]

I don't think it would ever be demoed but I also wouldn't just assume that to be the case, especially if it sits vacant for years.

[OkieMike]

Yeah, I don't think so either. I can see the east building(s) coming down as was said above. FNC tower is a landmark and could be restored for much less than demo/rebuilding something. If or when this is done, it'll be a great investment for someone.

[Pete]

There is also a proven track record on how to get the funding together and then run a successful hotel after huge renovations to a historic building, thanks to the Skirvin and Colcord.

[Steve]

Except they aren't. People are talking about possibilities. I'm glad Steve is taking responsibility for just being wrong about Preftakes but I wish he'd apply the same integrity here. A discussion isn't the same as "rumors flying".

I was referring to comments being made on Twitter. My post, by the way, was already being written before today's discussion and would have been posted Friday if I hadn't gotten sick. Was I misled by people I trusted? Yep. I'll make sure that doesn't happen again.

[hoya]

But this isn't sim city. This is private development and ownership

It's private development and ownership in an area that has received hundreds of millions of dollars in public funding, with specific laws and design guidelines about how you are supposed to build in this area.

It isn't like someone sprung this on them by surprise. They knew about these rules before they bought the land. If I move into Heritage Hills and want to tear down a turn of the century Georgian manor and replace it with something that looks like a giant neon pink igloo, you can understand why I'll be prevented from doing that. Right?

....Right?

[dankrutka]

You could say the exact same thing for Hotel Black.

I totally agree. That's why these demolitions are so frustrating. They're unnecessary. There are so many better ways to make this new tower work with the existing buildings/environment.