First National Center

[bchris02]

Just wondering, on what basis do you make this assumption?

Let's look...what do you think means more to the people of OKC?

This



OR

[Pete]

The public is involved by representative officials, not directly.

And those officials are put in a terrible position: Either approve this awesome new pro-business project as is or be cast out as an obstructionist.

It's not a coincidence that absolutely zero demolitions have been stopped by the representatives on the various committees and City Council.

I would also add that the public isn't privy to the information presented to the council in advance of their meetings and it always comes from a small group who only present from their own biased perspective. Biased in the sense it is THEIR plan.

They come with a fully formed plan and it's presented in a binary fashion: yes or no. The council does not participate in the process and in any meaningful way; they are just asked to vote on something that is already negotiated.

This is not conjecture on my part; I've confirmed that this is exactly how these things work.


So, claiming "most the people are fine with the demolitions" is irrelevant because we are not putting this to a public vote. If we were to do that, information would have to presented very differently before there was any sort of decision made.

[s00nr1]

The public is already involved. They elected the council that approved the appointment of the ddrc. And now they can comment at the public hearing.

And yet at the DDRC meeting in December it was a member of this board, aka "the vocal minority," who had his personal concerns and solution aired by a member of the committee.

[hoya]

BoulderSooner is right to a certain degree. There are a lot of people who don't care about anything. You could even bulldoze the bombing memorial and put in a Wal-Mart supercenter and I'm sure there are people in this city who would be totally fine with that. I'm sure there are a lot of people who wouldn't care one bit if you tore down First National. BoulderSooner is one of them.

It doesn't mean that those people have an opinion that is worth anything. No offense, Boulder.

[bchris02]

BoulderSooner is right to a certain degree. There are a lot of people who don't care about anything. You could even bulldoze the bombing memorial and put in a Wal-Mart supercenter and I'm sure there are people in this city who would be totally fine with that. I'm sure there are a lot of people who wouldn't care one bit if you tore down First National. BoulderSooner is one of them.

It doesn't mean that those people have an opinion that is worth anything. No offense, Boulder.

I am sure far more people care about the bombing memorial than care about Union Bus Station. The same would go for First National Center. There are some people that wouldn't care if it was demolished but for many it would be an outrage.

[BoulderSooner]

BoulderSooner is right to a certain degree. There are a lot of people who don't care about anything. You could even bulldoze the bombing memorial and put in a Wal-Mart supercenter and I'm sure there are people in this city who would be totally fine with that. I'm sure there are a lot of people who wouldn't care one bit if you tore down First National. BoulderSooner is one of them.

It doesn't mean that those people have an opinion that is worth anything. No offense, Boulder.

I would be crazy opposed to the demo of First National. Unless something that was replaceing it was amazing.


Just wait the preservation folks are going to oppose the demo of the center section. Of first national when the time comes. After all it is 58 years old. Even though it's demo will be required to make room for the garage that makes any Renovation of the tower feasible

[hoya]

I am sure far more people care about the bombing memorial than care about Union Bus Station. The same would go for First National Center. There are some people that wouldn't care if it was demolished but for many it would be an outrage.

That's true. I use that as an example to drive home the point that just because there are people who don't care, that doesn't make a place worthless.

[Pete]

Just wait the preservation folks are going to oppose the demo of the center section. Of first national when the time comes. After all it is 58 years old. Even though it's demo will be required to make room for the garage that makes any Renovation of the tower feasible

A small group may oppose that but you can't lump everyone who cares about the City's history and urban fabric into one bucket.

Most people here were fine with some of the SandRidge demolitions, just not all of them. We didn't hear a peep about the old Globe Life building coming down. And I think most people got their minds around the Main Street buildings on the Preftakes Block going away.

Intelligent, informed people can distinguish between something that probably has to go vs. something relatively important being bulldozed for no other reason than expediency or selfish corporate desires. And in the case of the Hines project, they are just planning to lay waste to everything on the block, and that absolutely should be challenged.

Speaking for myself, I'd have absolutely no issue with the center of FNC being demoed as part of a bigger redevelopment plan.

[UnFrSaKn]

Promises, Demolition and First National Center | News OK

[warreng88]

From the newsok.com article:

"Today's story about First National Center being emptied out with no sale certain has people nervous. And despite there being no threat voiced or hinted at in terms of demolition, rumors are flying online that First National could be the next endangered building."

This reaction probably came from this reaction:

This is extremely disappointing news. Why is it so often in this town the most exciting projects end up being extremely scaled back or cancelled or in major legal disputes that take many years to work out? Now we are talking demolition of this treasure? If First National Center gets demolished for anything less than a 1000+ ft supertall, I will lose all hope in OKC ever having a vibrant, urban downtown that can pull its weight and compete with its peers across the country.

[CuatrodeMayo]

From the newsok.com article:

"Today's story about First National Center being emptied out with no sale certain has people nervous. And despite there being no threat voiced or hinted at in terms of demolition, rumors are flying online that First National could be the next endangered building."

This reaction probably came from this reaction:

I'd like to think Urbanized and myself caused it

[warreng88]

I know you all talked about it, but this:

Yep. I've said it before here and been shouted down for my trouble, but expect to hear the demolition drumbeat start. For some rubble-rousers no old building is off-limits.

Get ready to start hearing the term "functionally obsolete"...

Doesn't sound as crazy as this:

This is extremely disappointing news. Why is it so often in this town the most exciting projects end up being extremely scaled back or cancelled or in major legal disputes that take many years to work out? Now we are talking demolition of this treasure? If First National Center gets demolished for anything less than a 1000+ ft supertall, I will lose all hope in OKC ever having a vibrant, urban downtown that can pull its weight and compete with its peers across the country.

[Pete]

From that article by Steve:

Promises, Demolition and First National Center | News OK

As recently as last summer I was responding to questions about the old Hotel Black and Union Bus Station that I did not have any definite information that they were being targeted for demolition. That was the truth. What I had were promises by owner Nicholas Preftakes that the buildings were not going to be torn down. I never had any such assurances about the Lunch Box building or the old Carpenter Square Theater (originally Baron's Department Store).

So I responded as only I could - that the last response from Preftakes was a promise that they would not get threatened. I take my responsibility to report accurately seriously, and I take responsibility for when I get it wrong.

Here is what he said and when he said it:

10/17/14

I am certain the old Hotel Black will survive. I've also been told by folks of influence that the bus station will also survive.

10/24/14

Nicholas Preftakes promised the Union Bus Station would not be torn down when he purchase the building. He has indicated One North Hudson, the old Black Hotel, also would not be torn down. City design ordinances would make it almost impossible to tear down both structures.

11/7/14

I question whether the Downtown Design Review Committee would simply let the bus station and the old Hotel Black be torn down when they are functional, structurally sound buildings with people interested in redeveloping them - especially if they are to be torn down for a parking garage.

[hfry]

"rumors flying online" Ha! 2nd time today after he tweeted a "rumor circulating online" earlier. I wonder where online he is talking about.

[Just the facts]

I would be crazy opposed to the demo of First National. Unless something that was replaceing it was amazing.

Would you consider 499 Sheridan and the accompanying parking garages 'amazing' enough? What about Sandridge Commons?

[jn1780]

Well, the three biggest things FNC have going for it.
1. Not across the street from the Devon Energy Center. Probably the best thing it has going for it.
2. Not across the street from MBG.
3. The plot of the land the FNC sits on isn't all that large.

[Dustin]

Yep. I've said it before here and been shouted down for my trouble, but expect to hear the demolition drumbeat start. For some rubble-rousers no old building is off-limits.

Oh hell no. That would never happen. I would hide myself somewhere inside FNC where they couldn't find me and they would be forced to not demo it.

[Pete]

I'm seriously considering putting this in our header:

"We always feel Oklahoma City is most successful when our residents are informed, engaged and able to participate in an ongoing public process.” – Mick Cornett Oklahoma City Mayor

Oil company withdraws Lake Hefner drilling proposal | KFOR.com

[shawnw]

So... Cafe 7... is it gone? Does "emptying out" also mean the retail spaces? Sorry if this is a dumb question...

[hfry]

Thank you Sid! Its not unreasonable to have that discussion when the sale is in limbo and the building is being empty. No one is saying it will be but the chances raised from zero with a buyer to extremely slim. Everything on here isn't a rumor, its a discussion between people who care about this city and want to make it better and keep/ get more people informed.

[Pete]

So... Cafe 7... is it gone? Does "emptying out" also mean the retail spaces? Sorry if this is a dumb question...

I know the current owners were wanting people out of the tower (west section) because any sale would be to someone who planned a massive redevelopment, and it was advantageous to market the property as ready for that process.

But now that things are in limbo, I can't imagine why they would want to run off the few remaining rent-paying tenants. Some income is better than none.

[Pete]

There seems to be this arrogant attitude by some of the powers that be in OKC that the public just needs to be told what to think and that everyone should just be trusted. Let the parents decide and report and we'll just pat the kids on the head; they should only speak when spoken to.

The huge problem is the complete lack of checks and balances inherent in the way big decisions are currently being made.

You have a precious few making huge decisions (increasingly behind the veil of the Alliance which does not have to comply with open records or open meeting laws), support is gathered from City Council long before there is a public meeting, and local media is clearly in bed with big business.

I am the furthest thing from a conspiracy theorist but the more I get raw, unfiltered, source information the more all of this makes me extremely uncomfortable.


The bottom line is if all this is so above board and so great for OKC, why all the secrecy? Exactly who is financing the Hines project? Why has't Nick Preftakes' name even been mentioned? Same exact questions for Clayco and Rainey Williams and OG&E.

There is no question the public process is being manipulated on both these projects and those are issues that need to be fully explored. And you have to question the role and motivation of those that don't want that to happen.

[shawnw]

I know the current owners were wanting people out of the tower (west section) because any sale would be to someone who planned a massive redevelopment, and it was advantageous to market the property as ready for that process.

But now that things are in limbo, I can't imagine why they would want to run off the few remaining rent-paying tenants. Some income is better than none.

I wish the Parkside building and grounds were ready, that restaurant space would make a nice alternate location for Cafe 7, ideally with dinner hours. Or, if the Cool Greens return doesn't happen, that space would work.

[Just the facts]

Pete, I can tell you the bad taste in my mouth over the last 2 months is from exactly what you just described. Clayco, 499 Sheridan, etc... are just the physical manifestations of what I feel has become a corrupt state and city government being run 100% by members of the oil establishment and is functionally no different than Putin's Russia or the elite ruling class in The Ukraine. It has turned me off from ever wanting to move back to Oklahoma. As a self-described right wing tea partier it scares the **** out of me that my fellow travels have been duped into not only following this path, but championing it. Turning the public realm over to private interest is NOT what I signed up for.

[TheTravellers]

There seems to be this arrogant attitude by some of the powers that be in OKC that the public just needs to be told what to think and that everyone should just be trusted. Let the parents decide and report and we'll just pat the kids on the head; they should only speak when spoken to.

The huge problem is the complete lack of checks and balances inherent in the way big decisions are currently being made.

You have a precious few making huge decisions (increasingly behind the veil of the Alliance which does not have to comply with open records or open meeting laws), support is gathered from City Council long before there is a public meeting, and local media is clearly in bed with big business.

I am the furthest thing from a conspiracy theorist but the more I get raw, source information (not through a filter) the more all of this makes me extremely uncomfortable.


The bottom line is if all this is so above board and so great for OKC, why all the secrecy? Exactly who is financing the Hines project? Why has't Nick Preftakes' name even been mentioned? Same exact questions for Clayco and Rainey Williams and OG&E.

There is no question the public process is being manipulated on both these projects and those are issues that need to be fully explored. And you have to question the role and motivation of those that don't want that to happen.

Not to dismiss your concerns, or water them down, but this is a microcosm of what's been happening all over the USA in the past few years/decades, and I'm getting more and more disgusted by it, but don't see a way out. I addressed it in another thread (and need to reply to Sid's reply), but the "people" don't matter in the USA any longer, pretty much *everything* is being controlled by the rich and super-rich (yes, I know it has been that way for a while, but now it's so nakedly out in the open). There are a few folks in OKC that have the power and $$$$$$ that they can do whatever they want, and nobody is accountable because nobody else has the power. We can elect new folks to the city council and other offices, but how long will it be before they become the tools of the $$$$? That's about all we can do now, disheartening at best, horrible at worst, but I see no way out of this situation here in OKC and the USA - the people cannot turn into the moneyed, powered elite, and the moneyed, powered elite just keep right on going. If anybody has any suggestions on how to fix this, let's hear 'em!

This *might* be a solution (long-term, most likely, if even that), but check out the map - no members of the organization are from OK (1 of 10 states that don't have members). Only elected officials can be members, so maybe we find out if there are any "progressive" elected officials in OKC and ask them to join?

LocalProgress

From the Cities a Progressive Movement Will Rise*|*Nick Licata