Preftakes Block

[Pete]

A big thanks to Kaynemo for the 3D model; first skyline image with more to come:

[Pete]

[hoya]

I'm sure this project will sail through any design review needed. I'm sure the ClayCo towers will get a sizable TIF award. As upset as I am that they're tearing down historic structures they don't need to tear down, and getting awarded money they don't need to be awarded, those 3D models of the city look good. I'm sure Devon and ClayCo have their own images just like that, only prettier and more detailed. This will all be approved and will go through without a problem. And after One North Hudson and the Motor Hotel are torn down, we'll lose a bit of history we didn't have to lose, and we'll get a bunch of office towers. And Hudson will have a buttload of cranes on it, and it will be cool.

In this city today we're doing things like 75% right. We've got growth, and that's good. But we could be doing things better, and they aren't dark mysterious unknown things. They're pretty obvious and we've got a lot of people with experience in the appropriate fields who say we're not doing them 100% right.

So if we accept that these projects are basically destined to go through as proposed, how do we make it so that we get better designs in the future? Once these go up, should we create a new ordinance or rule or whatever, that new construction in the CBD include a certain percentage of underground parking? Should we create a rule limiting the percentage of space on any one block that can be taken up by a parking garage?

[s00nr1]

The density of the NE 1/2 of this image compared to that of the SW 1/2 is just comical.

[HangryHippo]

I really wish they would have left this block alone and torn down the hideous Century Center and Sheraton hotel or build this project on any of the multitude of empty lots around town. Why does this have to go right here? What a disappointment.

[Just the facts]

Skyline shots are fun to look at it, but what makes a city great is what happens at the sidewalk. Everything above 50 feet is purely so suburbanites have some thing to look at from 10 miles away to make them feel better about how truly dismal the civic life is.

[jn1780]

If their going to allow Sandridge to demolish historic buildings for a business plaza then there's no doubt they will rubber stamp this development.

[Bellaboo]

I really wish they would have left this block alone and torn down the hideous Century Center and Sheraton hotel or build this project on any of the multitude of empty lots around town. Why does this have to go right here? What a disappointment.

Location - MBG and Devon HQ proximity.

[Richard at Remax]

Skyline shots are fun to look at it, but what makes a city great is what happens at the sidewalk. Everything above 50 feet is purely so suburbanites have some thing to look at from 10 miles away to make them feel better about how truly dismal the civic life is.

That might be the dumbest thing I have read in this thread, and I usually agree with you on most things.

[s00nr1]

Here's more on "The Exchange" in Vancouver:

Harry Gugger Studio?s ?The Exchange? to Rise in Vancouver | ArchDaily

Construction broke ground last month for ‘The Exchange’ tower in Vancouver, Canada’s first LEED Platinum heritage conversion and Harry Gugger Studio’s first North American building. The 31-floor office building resolves the strict urban regulations imposed on high-rise construction downtown and addresses the historical context by preserving and integrating the façade of the city’s historic Stock Exchange building.

[JRod1980]

Bank of Oklahoma will be going into this project; taking about 5 or 6 of the top floors. Devon will take most the rest.

I don't think there will be much speculative space.

Is Devon making the same mistake with this building that they made with their own tower, by not building enough space for growth?

If BOK is taking 5-6 floors, that leaves Devon with 18-19 floors assuming the bottom 2 floors aren't used as office space.

So why not add 10-12 floors, bring in another tenant the size of BOK or perhaps 2 tenants that equal the amount of space BOK is using and have room to grow?

Unless this site was in the plans all along and they knew Devon would be the only company that could tear down historic buildings without much of a fight… (just throwing out a fun conspiracy theory)

[jn1780]

Location - MBG and Devon HQ proximity.

And the new convention center.

[UnFrSaKn]

Wouldn't that be great to have a tower built into both One North Hudson and the Motor Hotel, which is already a parking garage (albeit a very old one).

[bradh]

That might be the dumbest thing I have read in this thread, and I usually agree with you on most things.

seriously

[AP]

Wow. The Exchange looks incredible. Really wish they would have done that.

[bchris02]

Skyline shots are fun to look at it, but what makes a city great is what happens at the sidewalk. Everything above 50 feet is purely so suburbanites have some thing to look at from 10 miles away to make them feel better about how truly dismal the civic life is.

Both are important and there are plenty of cities in the world that have impressive skylines and good street urbanism. It doesn't have to be either or.

[BDP]

So if we accept that these projects are basically destined to go through as proposed, how do we make it so that we get better designs in the future? Once these go up, should we create a new ordinance or rule or whatever, that new construction in the CBD include a certain percentage of underground parking? Should we create a rule limiting the percentage of space on any one block that can be taken up by a parking garage?

I think I've learned to accept a lot about our large scale corporate projects, mainly that they will not consider the current urban fabric and that any consideration to "place making", walkability, or other urban principles will be secondary and that the historical relevance of current structures, in terms of aesthetics and cultural impact, will rarely get any consideration, if at all. The projects can help because they bring people to the area during business hours, but they don't really strike me as a place you'd choose to go if you weren't there for work. Sure, they're taller than most of our buildings in the city, but the net effect is that it will really feel more like part of Dallas's 635 corridor than an urban district. I think at best it will create our own little sterile and cold corporate district you find in the financial centers of a lot of urban cities. Most people flee these areas to more urban and vibrant neighborhoods when the shift whistle blows at the end of the day.

For me, what makes the easier to swallow than in the past, is that we are actually starting to have urban areas for the workers to go to when the day is done. I'll never understand tearing down several buildings of the "they just don't build them that way anymore" that actually contributed to the urban fabric for something that, while larger, actually detracts from it. Then again, I'm personally more interested in Oklahoma City being a place people want to be more than making it look better from a mile away. We had some tallish buildings before and no one ever wanted to go downtown. It was really more the repurposing of older smaller buildings that renewed the interest in Oklahoma City's downtown to the point where people began to actually want to live there.

The reality is that for many large cities, the best part of it to look at from a mile away is the most boring part of it in which to spend time. I was hoping our new developments wouldn't aspire to that and there are elements here that, at this point, are at least paying lip service to creating space for people, but I think for most people these developments will just serve as window dressing for the MBG. I'm sure there is some potential for this block to be developed in such a way that it still has urban potential, but the thing is, that was already there. I have given up trying to understand why these projects always have to destroy the limited urban assets we have left to accomplish their massing, especially given the amount of underdeveloped space we still have. You do just kind of have to accept that whatever is left from when Oklahoma City's CBD was first developed as an urban area is disposable in exchange for height. Thankfully, the surrounding districts have taken a different approach and it's easy to see the positive impact doing so has had on the city as a whole.

[Rover]

Skyline shots are fun to look at it, but what makes a city great is what happens at the sidewalk. Everything above 50 feet is purely so suburbanites have some thing to look at from 10 miles away to make them feel better about how truly dismal the civic life is.

Statements like this are condescending and hurt the image of new urbanists. Why some feel you have to trash others to make a point and to try to feel superior is beyond me. Egos get out of control I guess.

While JTF makes a point that I think we all can agree on, that street interaction is more important than sheer height, it is done in a very offensive way. This from someone so dedicated to urban fabric they live in a suburb of Jacksonville. LOL

[Rover]

s00ner1, that is a great example of what can be done. Thanks for posting.

[AP]

Statements like this are condescending and hurt the image of new urbanists. Why some feel you have to trash others to make a point and to try to feel superior is beyond me. Egos get out of control I guess.

While JTF makes a point that I think we all can agree on, that street interaction is more important than sheer height, it is done in a very offensive way. This from someone so dedicated to urban fabric they live in a suburb of Jacksonville. LOL

And you've never been condescending ever, huh?

[JRod1980]

Maybe I missed this but what is the expected height of this building?

[Rover]

And you've never been condescending ever, huh?

I am sure I have, but I do not try to divide those who prefer different life styles. This idea that suburbanites are somehow stupid or pitiful and that downtowners are superior is just a ploy for urbanists to try to bully everyone to believe what they believe. You can make your point without insulting others. If you want credibility and want to assail others, just lead the life you preach or admit you are part of what you hate.

[soondoc]

Looking at those pictures of the downtown, it truly does look like the proverbial middle finger flip off. One great big tower with several little friends. Just imagine how much of a difference this skyline would look if they took this tower up about a 125 feet and it was 2/3 of the Devon? It literally changes the balance so it has contrast and you don't have a bunch of the same size mid rises surrounding the Devon. Seriously, just scroll up and imagine the tower being about where the horizon is on the first picture and see what could have been and should be.

To destroy these historic buildings and all the a part of OKC history for a mid rise and some parking gargages is wrong on every level. I hope people can get this changed where they can find a way to preserve and build higher. By the way, I love the ideas done in Vancouver and their is no reason it can't and shouldn't be done here as well. Can the person who posted the new pictures of what downtown will look like please do one more with the tower with a slightly smaller foot print and width but about 12-15 more floors making it about 600 feet or so? Maybe even one where it can be incorporated around the existing building like the one in Vancouver? Perhaps this can be forwarded to those who are doing this project and the city leaders for them to consider this before it gets final approval. How could they not be open to the idea that is a win-win for all?

[soondoc]

These are the photos. Pete, can you all post some new ones showing what it would look like if the tower was about a 100-150 foot taller and one with it incorporating the existing buildings like the one in Vancouver? That would be amazing to see and everyone would be happy.

[bchris02]

And you've never been condescending ever, huh?

When somebody is super dogmatic about something and they don't practice what they preach it deserves to be called out. It's like when the ultra-religious conservative politicians get caught having an affair or a same sex relationship or the fact Al Gore owns a private jet. If somebody is going to be that dedicated to a cause they should be willing to live the lifestyle they think everyone else should live.