Preftakes Block

[Just the facts]

Could this be "The Project that made Russell Claus give up on OKC and go home"?

Probably this and the 2 Clayco proposals. I can tell you this, these three projects have me seriously reconsidering how much I wish to return to OKC. I really hoped OKC was turning the corner on urban design, site planning, and place-making but in reality - it isn't. I think that instead of hoping OKC turns into a place I want to live that I just move to a place that already is a place I want to live. Larry Nichols is OKC's version of Emperor Napoléon III and Baron Haussmann rolled into one but he just isn't good at it.

[soonerwilliam]

Thank goodness for larry nichols!!!!!

[Jared]

Well, if the footprint that Pete put up on page 36 is correct, I am very sad to see Walker between Main and Sheridan turned into parking garage alley. If Walker was lined with commercial, I would be okay with the whole thing. I do like the angle, I think it will look good from MBG. I look at it this way:

Devon: Takes up 3 city blocks, 1,800,000 sf and disturbs main street. (600,000 sf/block)
499: Takes up .8 city blocks, 750,000 sf (I added 50,000 sf for the first two floors and commercial) and it keeps the grid. (937,500 sf/block)

So at least we are improving somewhere. I haven't mentioned anything since the time I brought up the idea of turning the Bricktown Canal into America's largest swimming pool, so if my numbers aren't correct, please don't come burn my house down.

[Snowman]

Having the "Parking Garage Ally", it also makes even less sense that they did not keep the grid verses swerving the main course of traffic from the boulevard's west side further south

[metro]

Like the building design, HATE the demo'ing of key important historic structures, especially for parking garages. There is no reason they can't locate some of the parking a block or so away on a vacant lot, or even use the Auto Hotel that has historically been used for the same purpose. Really ruining what little we have left of historic fabric, and turning us into a minuscule Dubai with large corporate urban campuses.

[Pete]

That tower would fit where the north garage is planned, and then a slightly larger garage could have been built to the west of One North Hudson and the Auto Hotel. They could also put a couple of levels underground to maximize the parking and have the same number of spaces they are planning now (or close to it) while preserving the two biggest buildings. That would have been a good compromise for demolishing the bus station and the other three buildings and what most people assumed would happen all along.

I'm quite sure the driving force is to create a cohesive Devon campus along Sheridan will all parts facing the Myriad Gardens

[Spartan]

So the question is, if it seems 80% of this board's participants hate this project (even though we have a Vast appreciation and respect for Larry Nichols & Devon), how are the people who run downtown design review supposedly going to push this through so they can start construction ASAP?

When they get a planning staff report back that highlights conformance and/or non-conformance with both the letter and spirit of our design review ordinances, complete with the planning staff recommendation, what then happens? What weight will that have? If they include some minor tweaks to the site plan, what is the likelihood that Pickard Chilton can make those tweaks within their timeline?

[Pete]

It will go the way it always goes: Professional planners with specific education and training in these matters will meticulously scrutinize and document how the proposal goes against countless guidelines that were adopted after a ton of work and thought, recommend the committee decline the request, and after lots of furrowed brows and hang-wringing the committee will approve anyway.

[Spartan]

Pete - I don't think anyone wants to stop Devon, even if only out of respect for what they've done for us. But if this was done professionally and respectfully, why wouldn't they be amenable to a few design review changes? They should even be able to provide design approval with a development agreement outlining the changes at the same time, and this can still be fast-tracked.

[Pete]

The committee did pretty much insist that Devon add those temporary window boxes along Hudson with the ability to add retail later. I think that was the only real change that was made due to committee input.

So, I would expect if there are any recommendations they will be very minor.

Really, all they need is the demolition approvals in January in order to move forward. As you recall, they made a bunch of changes to Devon Energy Center over time and long after they had their initial approvals. Changes are required to be submitted, but they were all rubber stamped; i.e. were approved administratively without going to the formal meeting.

[RickOKC]

As you recall, they made a bunch of changes to Devon Energy Center over time and long after they had their initial approvals.

This, to me, is probably the most encouraging post of this whole thread. I'm convinced what we're seeing now is not the entire, final project. To truly "rebalance the skyline," as they keep boasting it will do, it needs to be another 5-8 stories to do that. I would not be surprised to see that added a little further into the process.

These people do not hate our city; they just have a different vision of the ideal to which we are striving. That is fair enough. It's their money. Their land. Their stake. Their influence. Concerned parties should voice their opinions and strive for common-sense and reasonable adjustments, as well, but we are experiencing an unprecedented season of growth and success that should keep anyone from grousing for long.

Many cities, including cities cited as models on this forum, would be pleased to trade these buildings for this project.

[Pete]

I've been told they want to get final approval in January and start right away.

If that's the case, I doubt there will be many changes from what they've proposed.

[LandArchPoke]

I have been a long time reader, but decided it was time to start posting.

It's a shame that with Devon as a main driver of this development that aren't being more sensitive to the urban environment. Here's an great design example of a new office tower proposed in Vancouver that is being integrated into existing structures. This is something that could easily be done here, it would just cost a little more engineering wise and would keep a lot of the character of the area while adding density.

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Also, the statement this development is 600,000 square is BS. There is no way, unless they are counting the parking structures. The OGE tower is about 350,000 square feet with it being the same height and footprint.

[Spartan]

Many cities, including cities cited as models on this forum, would be pleased to trade these buildings for this project.

Can you show me where Austin, Charlotte, Denver, Portland, or any of those "model cities" traded something like the historic Motor Hotel for a new parking structure? That for one is the most senseless demolition proposed. Trading the Carpenter Square Theater for this tower, albeit painful, is an accurate application of highest and best use demolition. Do you get what I'm saying here?

This isn't ALL GOOD or ALL BAD. I wish people would stop seeing it that way. We have a review process for a reason. It's give and take, and we will just have to stay tuned to see what the public can potentially get out of this. Remember that it's the citizens who paid for MAPS 1, MAPS for Kids (school across the street), Arena tax to make downtown the popular place to hangout, MAPS 3 to take downtown to the next level, and P180 was paid for by redirecting Devon's property taxes from the schools to downtown streets. There is a very real public stake in this very important downtown project, regardless of whose land it is or what entity allowed Preftakes to get away with years of embarrassing code violations.

Above all, there is a very real value added proposition to be made for keeping the Motor Hotel and as much of the other historic fabric as possible. All of that adds tremendously and creates a sense of authenticity that would give Pickard Chilton, Devon, and BOK something to be proud of (especially BOK which traces its roots in Oklahoma back further than the others). Anyone can design a typical corporate tower, which is what we have here.

[BoulderSooner]

This will be approved because 99%+ of Okc is either for it or doesn't care

[LakeEffect]

The committee did pretty much insist that Devon add those temporary window boxes along Hudson with the ability to add retail later. I think that was the only real change that was made due to committee input.

So, I would expect if there are any recommendations they will be very minor.

Really, all they need is the demolition approvals in January in order to move forward. As you recall, they made a bunch of changes to Devon Energy Center over time and long after they had their initial approvals. Changes are required to be submitted, but they were all rubber stamped; i.e. were approved administratively without going to the formal meeting.

I will say, Scottye NEVER rubber stamped anything. She was meticulous and scrutinized everything (proving the point of your statement " Professional planners with specific education and training in these matters will meticulously scrutinize and document how the proposal goes against countless guidelines that were adopted after a ton of work and thought, recommend the committee decline the request." If it was an Admin. item, she often didn't simply accept the first proposal submitted, she worked with the applicant to make things work.

[Pete]

I will say, Scottye NEVER rubber stamped anything. She was meticulous and scrutinized everything (proving the point of your statement " Professional planners with specific education and training in these matters will meticulously scrutinize and document how the proposal goes against countless guidelines that were adopted after a ton of work and thought, recommend the committee decline the request." If it was an Admin. item, she often didn't simply accept the first proposal submitted, she worked with the applicant to make things work.

I meant design review always just sailed these through, not City staff who has always done a great job of evaluating the plans and making appropriate recommendations.

[Bellaboo]

I have been a long time reader, but decided it was time to start posting.

It's a shame that with Devon as a main driver of this development that aren't being more sensitive to the urban environment. Here's an great design example of a new office tower proposed in Vancouver that is being integrated into existing structures. This is something that could easily be done here, it would just cost a little more engineering wise and would keep a lot of the character of the area while adding density.


Also, the statement this development is 600,000 square is BS. There is no way, unless they are counting the parking structures. The OGE tower is about 350,000 square feet with it being the same height and footprint.

Are you sure ? I thought OGE was taking 350,000 but they are not taking all of the floors, and that the total building Sq ft was around 500,000.
And they state this tower will be 690,000 sq feet at that. This buildings foot print is probably larger plus 2 stories taller.

[Bellaboo]

I like the looks of the motor hotel but I've never been in or even looked inside of it. From what I've read in prior postings, it has it's limitations compared to a better designed newer garage.

[Pete]

Each Clayco office tower is to be 510,000 square feet.

The square footage for this project (690,000) likely includes the retail space but even then that is probably only about 25,000 square feet.

Foot print of this building would be slightly bigger and their are two more floors. I'm sure the 690,000 figure is correct.

[bombermwc]

Spartan, well here's why it's going to go on without a hitch, and it highlights some of our flaws here....Keep in mind that im not 100% save and not 100% demo. I'm a case-by-case guy and I feel like there hasn't been enough focus on saving existing structures here. Of course, not knowing any ACTUAL details on the project tends to taint my opinion against it. PERHAPS, i'll change my mind once I see a real masterplan. I just hope it's a good one, and if it is good, that it is built according to that plan...but I digress.

1 - In order for the project to be held up, a large outcry of support has to happen by the citizenry to "encourage" politicians to rethink a blanket approval (should that happen).
2 - For that outcry to happen, we would all have to get off our keisters and make a stink about this. Unfortunately (and I hold myself as part of this), people get focused on other things in their life and don't have the time (or don't care enough to actually do it) to make that stink. We can easily gripe all day long here, but when it comes to actually getting out there and doing something about it, there is so very little effort put into it compared to the effort made to construct the projects, it's just ignored. Much like other things in life today, we take the easy road and want to call it quits with writing and email or even worse, just writing our gripes (based only on opinion) in a forum.
3 - Someone with the development clout of Nichols would have to discourage the project, substantiating the opinions of the above group (not gonna happen).

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, I'm just being pragmatic about the realities of what's going to happen. In the end, he'll get what he's after and not only will we lose some history, but we'll lose density too. Yes, we'll get a new tower and that's something to be happy about. But like I've said before, I feel like we've grown up some in OKC and we're ready to have opinions about what goes in rather than accepting just any ole thing.

[LandArchPoke]

Thanks Pete and Bellaboo. For some reason I thought OGE was taking 100% of the first Clayco Tower. That's definitely a lot more speculative office than I originally thought. From the interview on NewsOK it sounds like 499 Sheridan isn't 100% leased either? So there will be excess space as well. I get there is a lot of grow in the energy sector right now, but OKC needs to be careful because if the oil prices stay like this prolonged these developments could have the potential to devastate the office market in OKC for a long time.

[Pete]

Bank of Oklahoma will be going into this project; taking about 5 or 6 of the top floors. Devon will take most the rest.

I don't think there will be much speculative space.

[bchris02]

Can you show me where Austin, Charlotte, Denver, Portland, or any of those "model cities" traded something like the historic Motor Hotel for a new parking structure? That for one is the most senseless demolition proposed. Trading the Carpenter Square Theater for this tower, albeit painful, is an accurate application of highest and best use demolition. Do you get what I'm saying here?

I have learned to stop comparing OKC and the way things are done here to the cities you mention. Doing so just results in disappointment and frustration. The culture here and the interests represented at the top is just too different. One thing to be thankful for is that, despite all the flaws in their way of thinking, the "powers that be" here are very pro-growth and really do have what they think the city's best interests are in mind. Go a couple hours east to Fort Smith Arkansas and you have a similar good ole boy network controlling things there but instead of being pro growth they are about preserving the status quo and saving history at all costs. Today the town has severe brain drain and a rapidly aging population.

As for peer cities doing senseless demolitions, Little Rock demolished a historic theater for surface parking in their downtown just a couple of years ago. They also demolished a four story office building for a one story Chipotle Mexican Grill.



I don't think OKC is alone in bad demolitions.

[ShadowStrings]

Is this going to be enough space for Devon, or are they going to have to build again down the road?