OG&E Energy Center

[Pete]

It's a fair point that someone needs to come along and prove that an ambitious project is feasible.

As things stand know, developers are on the sidelines because they don't think they can get the necessary office and apartment rent (or condo sales prices) to make a new high rise project possible. Or I should say, the market has yet to be tested at the rent levels needed to make new development on a large scale profitable. This was the major flaw in the Bricktown Towers proposal (I received a copy of the investor's package and took a look at the numbers).

So, someone has to go first. Someone has to build a semi-spec office tower and/or high-rise apartments and then see if the market will pay the necessary price that is required to turn a profit.


I'm sure this is the Clayco argument to the City, and it's certainly compelling.

If they build and get good office rents and get apartment rent up to $2 a SF, then others would certainly follow.

[onthestrip]

If the Clayco development ends up not getting approved due to the TIF issue, I guess we'll see what kind of development will be done with little or no governmental support. Could it be that big developers are not ready to invest fully at this level in OKC? If so, then everyone needs to settle down and realize we just aren't at the Clayco level of projects. Aside from Devon, I don't see any projects that are as ambitious as Clayco that have been done or have been announced in the CBD. Maybe the project that will make Big D jealous will prove otherwise, but it has not been announced and we don't know if they expect TIF either.

That assumes Clayco passes the subsidy onto the renter - which I doubt because I am sure these units will all go for premium prices way above the localized norm. Also, the role of the "Devil's Advocate" has already been cast in this production.

Quite simply, it probably wont get done without TIF money. There is simply too much risk without it. New construction costs have to command a high rental rate that OKC hasnt seen much of. With TIF money, they are able to be more competitive with rental rates and more likely to secure the leases it needs to bring in income.

I hate most govt handouts and subsidies but TIF is a relatively fair handout and we can be 99% sure that this wouldnt happen without it. Im not too up on this around the country but youre unlikely to see any developer do projects of this size without some city/govt subsidy.

[Pete]

If they build this out quickly, do it to a very high standard and help establish a market at the high prices they are going to have to charge, then the TIF dollars are probably worth it.

[Paseofreak]

So, if it works out that there is demand to support the real cost, the developer walks with a 26% bonus. If not, a few hundred well off family units and corporations get a substantial rent subsidy? Starting to stick in my craw. Perhaps the city needs to partner with Clayco and assume some of the risk, but also share in the upside if the market is there.

[Motley]

I agree. This will (could) prime the pump and help establish the next level market for OKC, or it could show that Oklahomans prefer sub-$1000 rental rates. I certainly would be hesitant to put up $200million of my dollars on a speculative market, but someone has to test the waters to see if OKC is truly ready for the big leagues.

[bchris02]

I agree. This will (could) prime the pump and help establish the next level market for OKC, or it could show that Oklahomans prefer sub-$1000 rental rates. I certainly would be hesitant to put up $200million of my dollars on a speculative market, but someone has to test the waters to see if OKC is truly ready for the big leagues.

High-rise residential worked in much smaller cities than OKC in the 2000s. It will surely work here in the late 2010s. It is a risk because it hasn't been done here before on this scale, but given the expected growth rate and how it's been received in other cities, it's not as big of a risk as its made out to be.

[boitoirich]

With that kind of money, I'd like to see the City insist on below-grade parking. I think that'd be a fine use of funds of that magnitude.

Or even to help lure an Urban Target.

[Bellaboo]

With that kind of money, I'd like to see the City insist on below-grade parking. I think that'd be a fine use of funds of that magnitude.

Early on one of the holdups was for easement granted for a below grade loading dock on California. I think this means they'll have below grade parking. I would hope at least.

[jccouger]

Absolutely no way we should give them that much tax money. No ****ing way.

[sooner88]

With that kind of money, I'd like to see the City insist on below-grade parking. I think that'd be a fine use of funds of that magnitude.

Underground parking would increase the cost of the project significantly, so I guess they could grant the same amount of TIF money and effectively decrease the TIF/cost %. I'm wondering if this is Clayco's way of seeing how much TIF they can get or if this is actually a deal maker/breaker.

[NWOKCGuy]

I'm thinking that there's a considerable amount of negotiation room there.

[hoya]

My guess is they're thinking you never know how much you can get until you ask. I follow the same philosophy with dating.

[DoctorTaco]

My guess is they're thinking you never know how much you can get until you ask. I follow the same philosophy with dating.

I'm just worried that we're going to give it to them, and thus set a terrible precedent.

[jccouger]

Anybody know if there will be any outside lighting elements? Any screens/leds of any sort? I know the original proposal (the one that came out to garner the destruction of stage center) had a screen.

It just makes sense. The MG botanical tube, the devon tower, the century center, the peake arena & the new convention center is bound to have some sort of lighting element. It would look out of place if it was the only development in this district of downtown to not have any sort of special lighting & this would for sure become the shot of OKC that everybody would think of when OKC is brought up in the national media.

[bchris02]

I don't think LEDs would be appropriate for towers like this. Lighting the crown or even full building illumination like the Sandridge tower would be a better fit.

[Just the facts]

If they build this out quickly, do it to a very high standard and help establish a market at the high prices they are going to have to charge, then the TIF dollars are probably worth it.

Worth it for whom? The whole purpose of the TIF was to establish a funding mechanism to support the public facilities within the TIF. If we continue to give away those tax dollars where is the money going to come from to maintain P180 streets in the future? If this goes through it will be the biggest bait and switch in the history of OKC. The entire push for urbanization was so that the tax dollars collected along public infrastructure paid enough to cover the cost of the infrastructure. If the City decides they don't want to do that then the whole idea of a tax sustainable downtown core is dead - just as it was finally getting started.

[DoctorTaco]

OGE made the plans to build this thing without counting on TIF dollars. This is just opportunistic bull. If they can't make their thing work without massive public subsidies then they should not have started down this path to begin with.

[bchris02]

OGE made the plans to build this thing without counting on TIF dollars. This is just opportunistic bull. If they can't make their thing work without massive public subsidies then they should not have started down this path to begin with.

Everyone understood they were going to want a subsidy for the south complex but I thought the north complex was going to be subsidized by OG&E without public assistance.

[BoulderSooner]

Lots of incorrect info being posted here about TIF.

TIF is mostly used to support development. Period.

None of the money given to them over 25 years would be tax dollars for roads

And none of the tif dollars would/will even exist without them building their building

[Pete]

OGE made the plans to build this thing without counting on TIF dollars. This is just opportunistic bull. If they can't make their thing work without massive public subsidies then they should not have started down this path to begin with.

Yeah, I really don't remember seeing anything about seeking TIF or any other type of public assistance until now, and there have been countless interviews with Rainey Williams and Clayco where they've been promoting this development, trying to gain public support for both the demolition of Stage Center and their general plan.

Seems very late in the game to suddenly say, "Oh, BTW we need $60 million in tax dollars. K?"

The whole way the north parcel has progressed has felt like a massive manipulation from Day 1.

[Plutonic Panda]

Anybody know if there will be any outside lighting elements? Any screens/leds of any sort? I know the original proposal (the one that came out to garner the destruction of stage center) had a screen.

It just makes sense. The MG botanical tube, the devon tower, the century center, the peake arena & the new convention center is bound to have some sort of lighting element. It would look out of place if it was the only development in this district of downtown to not have any sort of special lighting & this would for sure become the shot of OKC that everybody would think of when OKC is brought up in the national media.

Where is the original proposal? If you're talking about the one I think you're talking about:



"con·cep·tu·al

kənˈsep(t)SH(əw)əl/

adjective

of, relating to, or based on mental concepts."

Concept: an abstract idea; a general notion.

So, that tower was never really planned to be built like that, it was entirely just a general idea of the height, size, etc... of what is planned to be, but the designs were far from finished. That's the way I understood it and some people seemed like that specific design was actually proposed as a final build.

[jccouger]

Where is the original proposal? If you're talking about the one I think you're talking about:



"con·cep·tu·al

kənˈsep(t)SH(əw)əl/

adjective

of, relating to, or based on mental concepts."

Concept: an abstract idea; a general notion.

So, that tower was never really planned to be built like that, it was entirely just a general idea of the height, size, etc... of what is planned to be, but the designs were far from finished. That's the way I understood it and some people seemed like that specific design was actually proposed as a final build.

That is the one I'm talking about. They still had the idea to include the screen, which is in the southeast corner. It was even spoken about by Rainey Williams. Just wondering if that is still part of the plans somewhere.

[Plutonic Panda]

That is the one I'm talking about. They still had the idea to include the screen, which is in the southeast corner. It was even spoken about by Rainey Williams. Just wondering if that is still part of the plans somewhere.

I'm not sure. I like your idea though. That would be cool to see that. If they did originally have it planned, maybe they'll include it somehow.

[Just the facts]

Lots of incorrect info being posted here about TIF.

TIF is mostly used to support development. Period.

None of the money given to them over 25 years would be tax dollars for roads

And none of the tif dollars would/will even exist without them building their building

You are the main contributor to the mis-information. If P180 wasn't TIF dollar used to fund roads what was it?

From the Alliance for Economic Development website (it is freaking #1 on the list):

http://www.theallianceokc.org/programs

Tax Increment Finance Districts

The City of Oklahoma City has 8 tax increment finance (TIF) districts. The districts were established pursuant to the Oklahoma Local Development Act and the State Constitution. The districts are all located in the core of Oklahoma City.

Tax increment financing (TIF) is an economic tool that Oklahoma City utilizes for promoting development in blighted, underserved, or economically distressed urban areas. TIF helps to fund new economic growth that will attract new investors, consumers, and employers into the area.

TIF monies can be allocated in two ways:

1. The City can construct public improvements (parking, infrastructure, streetscape, and/or landscaping improvements) on publicly owned land or easements

and let me add - you have no way of knowing if these will be built if TIF funds aren't used AND if they can't be built without a taxpayer subsidy then maybe they shouldn't be built. We should wait for a project and developer to come along who can make a profit and expand the tax base at the same time - instead of one who doesn't expand the tax base, increase the cost to the existing base AND pulls funds from the existing base. In what world would the latter even be considered as a viable way of business?

[OkieNate]

Yeah, I really don't remember seeing anything about seeking TIF or any other type of public assistance until now, and there have been countless interviews with Rainey Williams and Clayco where they've been promoting this development, trying to gain public support for both the demolition of Stage Center and their general plan.

Seems very late in the game to suddenly say, "Oh, BTW we need $60 million in tax dollars. K?"

The whole way the north parcel has progressed feels like a massive manipulation from Day 1.

You're 100% right, this has smelled bad from the get go.