Ideas for the Century Center

[floater]

That minimall connected to the Westin on Main Street is being used as office space, last time I checked. Does anybody have any thoughts as to what might be a good use for it?

I thought it might be a nice place for an Oklahoma City history museum, but it looks like The Underground will fill that role until there is a major effort to establish a real museum. Other ideas:

- full-fledged conference/banquet center for the Westin
- museum/visitor center (ala Philadelphia's Independence Visitor Center)
- cafeteria
- service center - small grocery, bank, laundry, ticket event counter, cafe, video/game rental

but it needs an overhaul don't you guys think?

[HOT ROD]

Here is my opinion for the Century Centre:

We should turn it into an Anchor Store. We could turn the entire centre into a flagship type Anchor Store for Nordstrom, Saks, or Macy's. It would complement my idea for the galleria (build a Seattle Westlake type galleria on the SW parcel, a hotel or supertall hotel/condo tower(s) on the SE parcel), as it would create about 4 continuous blocks of retail.

I actually had this idea a long time ago when we were on the Oklahoman forum but here are the steps I would take (especially if I had the cash to do so):

1) work with the existing clientel inside the centre to move them to other downtown buildings (like First National Centre). I would form agreements with building owners where they renovate their space I would bring them customers kind of thing. This would vacate the Century Centre so I could then,

2) renovate the building interiour. Get rid of the suites and individual pods and create a multi level retail experience where departments could locate. The design would be very similar to what Nordstrom did to the old F&N building in downtown Seattle. While this ocurred, I would also

3) renovate the outside. Get rid of that stupid futuristic mall look and create something similar in design to the galleria concept (or use a concept synonomous to the anchor). Definitely have advertising windows outside and perhaps co-locate other retailers with their own storefront entrance - say Nordstrom anchor with a Tiffany's storefront.

Following these three condense steps would:

1) renovate downtown skyscrapers and bring them to the 21 Century
2) fill-up underused downtown skyscrapers
3) breath new life into a retail sector of downtown
4) continue the renaissance that a galleria development could initiate

Such an Anchor store already connects to the Westin Hotel, so tourists and transient customers would be assured. There is already an underground parking at the site so this would not be an issue. The Century Centre connects to the Underground, so the two would feed one another. And finally, with the correct selection of anchor, Oklahoma City would finally see the return of major upscale and mid-upscale anchors in a true downtown shopping district.

If I could I would definitely proceed with this plan, perhaps I will give it more thought and see what happens. But in any event, I would love for anyone to follow these suggestions nonetheless because it would be good for OKC.

[HOT ROD]

I just wanted to add, that I do not want the site to be used for a museum. We should develop zoning "rules" so that we can create true downtown districts. If such was in effect, then museums would be located near the OKC MOA.

The Century Centre should be retail, that is what was intended and that is what it should become. I just disagree with the Mall concept and think it should be a stand-alone anchor store for a major upscale or mid-upscale retailer.

Imagine, the Nordstrom Centre - connected directly to the Westin Hotel, with existing and new retail storefronts at the Colcord Bldg, retail storefronts on the reopened nearby Main Street, the Westlake style galleria and highrise hotel/condo tower(s) a block away on Sheridan, and so on .. .. ..

Now that is a true urban retain renaissance that is definitely needed in Oklahoma City!

[BG918]

I like the Nordstrom idea, one of those would definitely draw people to downtown because it would be the only one of its kind in the state.

[floater]

I, too, would like to see some retail there, but let's be realistic. How long would the department store last? Only a few major cities can support such an anchor store. Seattle can do it because it has about 22,000 downtown residents and 190,000 workers. OKC has a little over 3,000 (possibly 1,300 more in the next few years) residents and about 40,000 workers.

The only way mass retail can work downtown is if the development offers something Penn Square, Quail Springs, or Crossroads doesn't. Your typical enclosed mall will not last long. As Hot Rod said of the Galleria site, it must be well-planned, and creatively conceived.

[Patrick]

I definitely agree that this mini mall needs a major overhaul. I remember back when it used to have several stores and eating places in it. Unfortunately, it fell about the same time the Conncourse did!

I like the idea of turning this into an anchor store, and then extending it out across Harvey (Harvery basically dead ends here anyways, so just close it here) and onto the Galleria site. But, as has already been mentioned, I don't think another enclosed mall would survive. That's apparent with Crossroads and Heritage Park about to bite the dust!!!! But still, I suppose the space could be converted to an anchor store, then other individual buildings be built to the west of it on the Galleria site and on Harvey to create a Galleria shopping district...not a mall though.

I'm with floater though.....although I'd like to see an ancohr store, I'm not sure one would do so great there, for the same reasons floater mentioned.

floater, I like your idea of turning this space into an Oklahoma City museum! This would be a great location, because afterall, the OKC Convention and Visitor's Bureau is the main anchor of that mini mall now. The Bureau could stay there as the main anchor, and the rest of the space converted to a museum portraying the history of the city. We used to have a city museum on the east side of I-235, just south of NE 50th St, but it was closed a few years back and the building is currently up for sale. Not sure where the items from the museum went. I remember going there a few times though, and they had some great artifacts from our city's history. The building was about the same size as the mini mall we're referring to.

By the way....I understand Hot Rod's methods for turning the mall into an anchor store. They're very similar to what Burlington Factory did when they moved into the old French Market Mall area. Burlington basically converted the old mall (with two levels of small shops) into a two level anchor department store.

The same method has been used at OKC Market Square, formerly Outlet Malls of America, on NW Expressway and Council. The mall is no longer there, and the space is being filled by a larger store.

As nuclear has told us....the day of the mall is almost over. Larger multi level malls will probably survive, but everything else will probably die.

[HOT ROD]

I, too, would like to see some retail there, but let's be realistic. How long would the department store last? Only a few major cities can support such an anchor store. Seattle can do it because it has about 22,000 downtown residents and 190,000 workers. OKC has a little over 3,000 (possibly 1,300 more in the next few years) residents and about 40,000 workers.

The only way mass retail can work downtown is if the development offers something Penn Square, Quail Springs, or Crossroads doesn't. Your typical enclosed mall will not last long. As Hot Rod said of the Galleria site, it must be well-planned, and creatively conceived.

Floater, I think your reasons are why such an anchor conversion of the Century Centre would work downtown.

The store would be a one-of-a-kind anchor that the state currently does not have. Such a store would arguably have 10 times the draw in customers that does the much touted Bass Pro.

Combine that with the aformentioned Galleria concept and you begin to see a sustainable downtown shopping district.

While I think your numbers for downtown Seattle are not quite accurate (I heard there were only 15000 residents for downtown Seattle, with virtually none in the CBD), the residential population did not exist until developments like Westlake began to mature! Seriously!

As Nuclear has said time and time again, when you build retail build a residential tower on top or close by. Well, after seeing the success 500,000 downtown residents has done for Vancouver, Seattle is trying to do the same. In fact, San Francisco and cities around the world marvel at downtown Vancouver - and they followed the suggestion of Nuclear to the tee (just years earlier).

OKC can learn from both cities. With all we have in Seattle, we have only about 20 mil sq ft of retail space downtown compared with 100 mil sq ft in downtown Vancouver! Because Van built retail below and condo towers above! Resulting in sustainable retail and urban residential community.

I know this is a bit off topic, but so far I am responding to your quoted diff in OKC vs Seattle downtowns. In reality, both are similar in many ways but Seattle has learned that a sustainable downtown has retail and to have retail you need critical mass. Tourism has brought that but residents have sustained it, for the most part.

What I am saying with my idea is, OKC needs a major retail draw. Yes, we have tourists and soon we will have a nice residential downtown pop of 10k; but two retail anchors (the Westlake type Galleria and the Anchor conversion of the Century Centre) would set downtown OKC in the same league as the majors.

Dont worry about the current demo, they will come - especially if it is the only one in the state (which we should definitely have in writing from the anchor store for at least 10 years). The galleria and anchor would feed each other, plus the anchor would be fed by the Westin Hotel! And the tourists will definitely go to both, as they do Bricktown.

While our residential pop does not compare to downtown Seattle's, Sea-Town was not always the bastion of urban living either. We (Seattle) learned from our larger Canadian Neighbour (Vancouver) and we are trying it here, with some successes. OKC can learn from Seattle and Houston, do the Galleria right and bring another retail draw.

An anchor conversion of the century centre would not only ensure success of downtown retail but would also move OKC into another league that we all want to see occur!

[Patrick]

Hot Rod, I agree fully with your idea for an anchor store in the mini mall. I guess the question now would be, what type of anchor store. I've been to Nordstroms....and I'm going to be real honest with you....they are pricey and I'm not sure the market around here would support that! We might be better with a Macy's or Niemann Marcus. They're a little more affordable, but still upscale.

Also, I didn't ralize the tower you were referring to over the Galleria development would be a residential tower. You compared it to 50 Penn Place, and I figured you were talking about an office tower. I think a Galleria style development, or even a 50 Penn Place style development on the Galleria site would work a lot better if the tower were a residential tower instead of an office tower. Afterall, it's residential communities that support retail! Having a 50 Penn Place development with a residential tower in place of the office tower would be quite first class. Except I would make a few adjustments on the 50 Penn Shopping design itself...make it 4 floors like you suggested! Then you can have anchors around it but not connected to it directly. This would prevent you from having a large mall, while still having a shopping area....I guess it would be a combined mall/shopping village. The galleria area would just be an anchor for the complex!
I guess that's what you were trying to say!

[HOT ROD]

Patrick:

At first I did say office over the Galleria concept because I was aligning my idea to our Galleria here in Seattle, Westlake - which has office over retail.

But I totally agree with you, OKC Galleria should have residential on top. Build a nice, tall tower! The Galleria would be on the SW parcel of the site, with a new hotel or hotel/condo combination tower on the SE parcel!

Inside the Galleria would be NO department store or mainstream store, but one of a kind upscale and near upscale retail and local shops that appeal to the jet set yuppie and tourist crowds.

Also understand, my idea for the Century Centre is to convert the whole thing into one anchor store. Just like you mentioned about Burlington; clear everyone out into downtown skyscrapers and storefronts, gut the thing, and have a single large draw anchor in its place.

Potential anchors could be Nordstrom, Macy's, Bloomingdales, or Neiman; but something that does not currently exist in OK (if not the region). Think about it, we will get transient draw from other states (just like Dallas currently gets from OK) in addition to the tourists and conventioneers!

Our prices would probably be less because the cost of living is less here, so tourists would likely spend $$$! That could make-up for the current demographics.

But dont set those demographics in stone! because as more retail comes in, the economy of downtown improves and our demographics increase! Soon, normal Oklahomans would be joining the jet setters at the urban shopping district.

Heck, I would be willing to bet that such a downtown shopping district could get a sustainable draw from Nichols Hills, SW, NW, and Edmond right now!!!

Most of the people that shop in downtown Seattle dont live in Seattle, but live in the affluent East side suburbs (you know, Bill Gates territory)!!! The same would be true for OKC!

Currently, the affluent of OKC either go to NHP or PennSq, shop by catalog/internet, or go to Dallas! We have been feeding the DFW economy for WAY TOO LONG!!! It is time to keep our dollars here and draw from our visitors!

To recap here are my ideas for the creation of a downtown retail district:

1) develop the SW portion of the galleria site into a multi-level enclosed upscale galleria with a 20 storey residential tower on top. The galleria would contain only high end and local retail that appeals to the jet setter yuppie and tourist markets. These types would also be the ones most likely to live in the tower. Not sure if the tower should be condos, apts, or both.

A bookstore in this galleria is a MUST REQUIREMENT and would be the only anchor. Everyone else would be boutiques, bars, restaurants, and small upscale that is not found anywhere else in Oklahoma. Only prominent local shoppes would be allowed (like Harolds, etc).

2) develop the SE portion of the galleria site into one or two highrise hotels or combination hotel/condo tower(s). There would be specialty retail on the ground floor like a PF Chang's, Todai, and a salon.

The current fountain (or a new grander one) would separate the two parcels.

3) redevelop the Century Centre into a single-client multilevel anchor store. The store would not be currently available in OK and would be required to sign at least a 10-year state exclusitivity agreement. (No Bass Pro type agreement, please).

a) current office tenants would be moved to underperforming downtown skyscrapers. Agreements with owners would be reached where they would update their towers in exchange for (virtually free) tenants.

b) the existing structure would be gutted and then new flooring would be built. This may depend heavily on the anchor choice for the exact interiour design. What I am imagining is what Nordstrom did to the old F&N building in Seattle when they moved the flagship anchor store there. We require the outside to have windows that would feature ads for the store and perhaps some designated for public art.

4) re-open Main Street to once again flow through the galleria site. It was a BIG mistake for city planners to close it off and create a four-qu-block parking lot. Reopen Main St to traffic (even if it is one way for part of it) then encourage storefront retail at existing buildings.

What I envision here is, there exists some storefront retail at the First National Centre and the Corporate Tower (Kinko's) that abuts Main Street. Do the same with the Oklahoma Tower and that other tower that would abut a reopened Main St. Bring more retail to the First National abutment, in fact, do it to all sides of the building!

These concepts would create a downtown retail district that would be sustainable because:

1) OKC gets very good convention traffic. This will ONLY INCREASE as more hotels are built downtown! Conventioneers would shop here because either they do not have the stores where they live or our prices would probably be less than at their hometowns if they did have the stores. The stores would survive (and profit) nicely because cost-of-business rates are very cheap in OKC, especially downtown.

2) OKC is getting downtown residents. I think downtown OKC currently has 5,000 residents. That would double with the current schedule of construction either ocurring or on the table. A forecast set out demand for at least 6,000 units - giving a potential of at least 16,000 downtown population using the current census designated housing ratio (2.56).

These residents may be better able to afford and sustain the downtown district than the current OKC base; but then again, current suburbs of Nichols Hills, far SW, NW, and Edmond could arguably support the district if it were here today, since the retail would be available downtown instead of them going online or out-of-state. (If Seattle can do it, so can we - no Nay Sayers!!!).

3) OKC tourism - OKC currently has a nice tourist base that will only increase as word of mouth and new advertising begins to set in. These tourists (like me) would definitely like to shop in a downtown district.

Imagine this: Tourists and conventioneers could embrase the best OKC has to offer (without them having to drive a million miles to get there). They would come to the downtown hotels, walk to the Galleria, Anchor Store, and shoppes to shop, eat, and enjoy. The next day, they would go to Bricktown to see attractions, eat, and dance the night away! Day three they could visit the museums and see a play in the arts district. Then tourist could venture outside of downtown to Asia District, Capitol Hill, Adventure District, and so on.

4) Last but not least is new residents! OKC is gunning for the so called trend setting creative thinkers. We have a lot of them in the Seattle area and what they want is convenient urban living! Build high rise apt and condo towers downtown with retail on the ground floor.

The legacy square at arts is fine too, just have MORE RETAIL!! and reserve those developments for MidTown! Downtown should have highrises and skyscrapers. Midtown should have the 6 storey urban enclaves.

Vancouver BC is the example that nearly everyone uses, condo towers, apartments, and hotels throughout downtown that has given them the nickname of Manhattan West and one of the most densily populated downtowns on the earth. Their downtown is only 1.5 sq miles but has over 500,000 residents. unbelievable! Almost the entire downtown peninsula is a venerable skyscraper forest, so much so, that Vancouver was forced to raise its height restriction so now buildings up to 650 feet can be built.

OKC has no such restriction but I think we should focus on tower density first with a few super-tall office towers (once the current supply fills up with my ideas). It would be great for devon energy to build a nice 60 storey tower in the CBD. That would give them Plenty of space and they could rent out what they dont want. Plus we would get a new ICON skyscraper!

Believe me guys, these ideas CAN happen! With good urban planning and directed investment, these ideas can truly solidify OKC as the destination of the state, if not the region. And that would be a renaissance!

[Patrick]

Hot Rod, I like the idea you've mentioned. It would be similar to 50 Penn Place (50 Penn has no anchors but is an anchor to the area itself), only with a residential tower in place of the office tower. With a residential tower above, people would always be there at home to shop, so I think it would perform much better than 50 Penn Place, which has an office with employees that go home after 5 PM.

I also like your idea for the department store to take up the complete space at Century Center. Once nice thing about that space is that it's directly across the street from the convention center, so you'd always have conventions to attract shoppers from. I think such a store would probably also help us attract more conventions. Convention goers want shops and entertainment close by. How much closer can you get?

I know this Galleria development would create a mini mall, but in combination with street side retail, and an anchor in Century Center, I think such a development could do well!

One thing I would consider....changing the name from Galleria to something else. Galleria makes us look too much like Dallas or Houston. We can be more original than that. Afterall, didn't you say Seattle had a different name for its Galleria area?

By the way, the tenants you mention for this Galleria development sound very much like those in Nichols Hills Plaza and 50 Penn Place. 50 Penn currently has Harold, Talbots, Route 66, Belle Isle Brewery, Balliets, Full Circle Bookstore, etc. A Bookstore like Full Circle, either in a Galleria development or in Bricktown, would be nice!

By the way, I would probably leave the OKC Convention and Visitor's Bureau in Century Center. That's a perfect location for them, but they're not taking up that much space there, so wouldn't impact this too much!

[Patrick]

By the way, I have no doubt in my mind that Devon will be looking for more space before too long. They're growing fast. I just hope they don't pull a Chespeake!!! With them currrently owning Mid America tower, I have a feeling they'll stay downtown though! Since they are now the nation's largest independent onshore oil and gas company, I think Devon building a 60 story skyscraper, the largest downtown, would definitely be appropriate for them! It would make a statement about their dominance in OKC and in the US! Kerr Park is nice, but I liked the scale model Tap had, showing a 60 story office tower in the middle of where Kerr Park is now located! It made the skyline look nice and compact! I'd be willing to give up Kerr Park for such a development!

[floater]

Hot Rod, I guess it depends on who you use as your source about the residential data. I used this site:

http://www.downtownseattle.com/Econo...ngBusiness.cfm

But I did also see that 15,000 figure on another site. It probably differs on what these two define as "downtown". I got my OKC figures from Anthony McDermid's housing presentation at the Mayor's Development Roundtable, and the workers number from okcedis.com.

Anyway, residents are ultimately the consumers of such retail, and I agree that high-rise residential properties ought to precede if not come with anchor and lifestyle retailers. It would take a developer with far-reaching reputation and vision, with uncommon devotion to the Oklahoma City retail market. They would have to look beyond numbers. If the city works in concert with such a developer to provide incentives and aggressively make the case that our market is rich and untapped, it could happen! A little courting doesn't hurt. If we pay as much attention to such a project as we have in luring a Dell or the Davis Cup (where our advantage is not so obvious), we could do it!

[HOT ROD]

floater, you I and patrick think alike.

I totally agree with you! I think the city should begin to pursue some of the ideas we have on this thread. It would TOTALLY change downtown and may have a greater impact than Bricktown did.

Sure, Brick moved OKC to the 21 century as a big city, but this development could solidify OKC as a major retail force. Perhaps not at the beginning but what about the future, even near future.

A redevelopment of the CCentre plus the aformentioned galleria concepts would be just the beginning. I could not imagine anyone in their right mind (especially anyone not currently living in OKC) that would move here and not stay in a downtown development like that (assuming they could afford it).

And you know the "human capital" that OKC is going after WOULD surely live in a highrise downtown development oppose to a suburb! Do you guys recommend that I write up a synopsis of this idea and send it to the city?

And I also agree with you on the demographics. Those numbers you have could be just the Downtown Inc. designated districts. I know Dduece apts must have over 1,000 residents and Syc Sq must have 1,000 and what about Regency? Those three alone probably equates to 3,000 or so. There are other properties in Auto alley and even Brick (although not nearly enough) where residents live.

In some contexts, Midtown is included in downtown numbers as is Riverside. Those neighbourhoods used to be part of downtown a long time ago, but not now.

I think realistically, we probably have about 5,000 downtown residents (max) right now in the DOKC designated area of downtown. Research suggests for this designated area, pent-up demand could support an additional 6,000 housing units = equating to an additional 15,000 residents (using the census multiplier for housing). That is what I was saying.

And many of the new downtown residents would have disposable income, even if the condos were expensive by OKC tastes (say $200,000 for 1500 sq ft), that is a walk-in-the-part for someone moving here from Seattle, or NYC, or expecially San Fran!

So, like you and Patrick said, we should not pay too much attention to the current (2000) demo as we want the additional people/additional revenue and that would support downtown retail. Besides, we have more tourists and transient buyers than we did (even in 2000)! Which is also GREAT!!!

[HOT ROD]

About Seattle, it is kind-of weird because there are neighbourhoods surrounding the CBD, and Seattle has a rather large (or just long) CBD. Almost nobody lives in the CBD, as it is just office towers and hotels. But on every side of the CBD, there are residential.

To the east is First Hill and Capitol Hill - by far the densest population of Seattle, and First Hill is considered just across I-5 freeway from the CBD (like a block).

Belltown, to the north of the CBD is sometimes considered downtown but really is not downtown. Belltown has some highrises but most are brand spanking new and its pop is still probably less than about 6,000. Those highrises are kind-of priced out of the market because of the wonderful views and the fact that developers still have/had the mentality that everyone here works for Cash Rich Microsoft. Also, they want Belltown to be like Vancouver, BC but the demand just is not here - especially not at prices approaching $2,000,000. This is not San Fran you know! (what were they thinking!!!)

Just west of the CBD is a little strip of residential/office/hotel mix called the Waterfront, as it abuts the Puget Sound. Development here is limited to a few highrises but mostly low rise townhomes. Once again, much of it is priced out and it is not full. I would say, 3,000 live there?

South of downtown is Pioneer Sq (which has transient residents mostly) and International District (our Chinatown/Little Saigon combo). Not many people live in these neighbourhoods but I would say about 4,000?

So add them up, 6+3+4 plus I would say 1,000 in the CBD but that is pushing it; and downtown Seattle might have 14,000. But like I said, downtown here is the CBD only. Those other districts are not considered downtown (with the possible exception of Belltown but it is really separate from the rest of downtown in most respects).

But like you said, it all depends.

I personally would say Downtown Seattle is Waterfront+CBD = 4,000 residents. These 4,000 are what really keeps downtown 'alive?' Although d Seattle dies out just like everywhere else in the US after 8pm except Chicago, SanFran, and NY. Also I saw the 4,000 quoted in the Seattle Times in an article where our Mayor said he wanted Seattle to become more like Vancouver. downtown Vancouver never sleeps!

In a nutshell, we can be realistic but we should never sell OKC short again. We have potential just like everywhere else and we want our city to grow with jet setters and I am telling you they like living in urban districts not suburbs. This is the message we should ensure our city fathers understand. Then I am certain other high tech would come here!

[mranderson]

Westin Century Center Hotel and Casino! Now, that is the ticket!

[Patrick]

I wouldn't be opposed to that, but it would be a hard sell around here!

I think in this thread we've made one thing clear.....we need a stronger retail presence downtown, regardless of what it is, and there's several great options that can be explored.

[Patrick]

Does anyone know who owns the Century Center? I'd like to email them and tell them about our ideas for an anchor store. I might email the owners of The Westin and see if they know. My first guess would be that the hotel owns the space. Anyways, since the OKC Convention and Visitor's Bureau is the main tenant in there I might write them a letter and let them know about our plan, or at least email them as well. Anyone else that would join me in this effort, the help would be appreciated. You can find the email addresses at www.okccvb.org and www.westinokc.com.

[floater]

I don't know, but we can at least ask those two.

[Patrick]

I emailed both the OKCCVB and Dale Gannon at the Westin. I hope you guys will do the same. The more people we can get to email them with our iea the better. I suggested an upscale department store.