Once Saved always saved?

[Patrick]

This is obviously purely a Baptist belief. What do you guys think about the doctrine, "Once Saved Always Saved?" I'll comment later. I want to hear your opinions first.

[mranderson]

You are correct. It IS a Baptist belief.

I do not believe God "saves" certain people for higher assignment. (The only way I can think to say it). That gives some people very big heads.

If there is a heaven in the way we are taught to believe, then I believe it is an individual space where you spend time with the people who truly care about you. A place to enjoy the fantasies (clean) that you never had on earth.

[Patrick]

I think the word "save" a lot of times is misintepreted. "Saved" in a religious sense, simply means that you've given your life to Christ and thus will go to heaven. It doesn't mean that God "saved" certain people early on. People make the choice whether they're going to heaven or not based on the choices they make in life.

[Underling]

Correct, Patrick, but I've still always had issue with the doctrine. I was raised So. Baptist and my father was an ordained minister in the church for 25 years. And it always felt to me that the Baptist belief in "Once Saved, Always Saved" removed all accountability from the believer.

Rather than making a profession of faith and striving to LIVE that faith, many in the church seem to say, "Okay, I'm saved now. Jesus took all of my sins away...and any sins I committ from now on."

It's especially bad on the teenage psyche. There were no more hateful kids in my high school that the youth group from Quail Springs Baptist Church...those kids that prayed with the FCA crowd were "saved" in their eyes...but they were far from being Christian.

I think that to be saved means that you believe in the sacrifice of Chirst with all your heart and live you life in such a way to show others Christ's love through you. It is not about evangelizing. You shouldn't have to say it and cajole others into belief...instead one's own salvation should be a silent witness to the world.

I'm not saying that you must live the perfect life...but if "Once Saved, Always Saved" is true...there are a lot of undeserving "believers" out there getting credit for a life they haven't even attempted to live.

Sorry...a little rambling I know...but sometimes when I get going...

[Patrick]

I can see where you're coming from. I have mixed emotions about the doctrine myself.

I do believe that you can't be saved, lose your salvation, and then gain it back again. Hebrews says that in order to do that you'd have to crucify Christ twice.

But about once saved, always saved....well, here's how I lean. You mention the behavior of many that claim to be Christians but don't act like it. Well, in a sense, I'd have to question their salvation. It's important to recognize, that even after you've received Christ, you're still a sinner saved by Grace, so you'll continue to sin. But, if you have the mindset that you're saved now, so you can keep sinning and you're covered...well, I have to question the validity of the salvation. If you've truly crossed the line, and truly given your life to Christ, I believe that Christ changes you...He changes your life. If you've truly received the salvation experience, and are bearing the fruits of the spirit as a mature believer, then I feel you've been born again into a new life. Can you lose this salvation? Well, I feel that if you deny Christ, you can indeed lose your salvation...Judas did.....the Bible says if you deny Christ before man, He will deny you before His father in heaven. But, again, that's all up to interpretation....Jesus forgave Peter, even after Peter denied Him.

One thing you have to remember......not everyone who claims to be a Christian has truly gone through a genuine salvation, life-changing experience. Billy Graham said once that probably about only 30% of the people in our churches today are really saved. He wasn't judging, he was just being honest, from what he saw.

Oh also, there's a verse that says once you are in God's hand, no one can snatch you from it....if you want the reference I'm sure I can find it.

Anyways, it's a very controversial issue, and I think it can be supported from both sides. I just wanted to hear some dialogue on the issue. Thanks for joining me in this dialogue. If any others want to jump in, I invite you.

[Keith]

Here is my take on it. For many years, I have had friends and relatives ask me that same question. For years, I counseled people at church when they made the decision to accept Christ. I would always ask them if they understood the decision they made.....many of them children. Children are the toughest, because you can't really know what they are thinking.

When someone accepts Christ, it is a very serious committment. It is a committment to follow Christ and to abide by his teachings in the Bible. Once a person accepts Christ, that seed is planted in their heart, and if they were really serious, they will not want to sin. That scripture reference is in the book of 1 John. Naturally, we all sin no matter what, however, there are certain things that we do have some control of, with the help of God.

Sure, we will make errors and sin, however, Jesus is there to forgive us of our sins. If a person says that they have accepted Christ, yet they continue to live their old ways, continue to committ the same sins over and over again, and don't show repentance, then they never actually accepted Christ, they just went through the motions.

I also agree with Patrick about his way of looking at it. If a person continues to committ the same sins, and they feel that it won't matter anyway because they accepted Christ, and will be forgiven anyway, boy do they have a big surpise waiting for them. To me, they never committed themselves to Christ...all they wanted was a crutch.

"... not everyone who claims to be a Christian has truly gone through a genuine salvation, life-changing experience. Billy Graham said once that probably about only 30% of the people in our churches today are really saved. He wasn't judging, he was just being honest, from what he saw."

I agree 100% with the above statement. It's real sad, but it is true. Many people are living their life, thinking they are saved, yet they never actually committed their lives to Christ. Another thing......Only about 15-20% of the church members tithe their 10% to the church. The other 80% are basically getting a "free" ride, although the Bible clearly states that we should give 10% of our earnings to the Lord. That doesn't mean the net income, it means the gross income.

So, in answer to the question at hand, I do believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. As a Christian, not as a Baptist .

[Patrick]

Keith, great way of interpreting and explaining the doctrine! I agree fully with your comments.

You bring up some good points about tithing....especially when you mention tithing on gross vs. net income. This has been a topic of controversy for years.

This topic was brought up in the Baptist Messenger last week. The Baptist Messenger is the newsletter of the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma. Executive Director of the BGCO, Anthony Jordan put it this way:

"....a tithe is 10 percent of your income. I am always asked whether that is figured on the gross or the net. It’s your choice. Gross blessing or net blessing?"

[Ms.Relaxationstation]

I'll try to keep this short ...having been raised Southern Baptist myself, I too grew up with the assurance that once I was "saved" no matter what I did I could not lose my salvation. Which in a sense is true, I cannot "lose" it but I can make the choice to walk away from Christ. He is a loving God who has given us the freedom to choose Him- he doesn't demand it. Therefore even having been saved, there are times when people CHOOSE to turn away and walk away. The bible tells us that "we cannot be snatched away from Him" which I believe is where we got some of that doctrine. I apologize that I did not take the time to read the entirety of every entry so this may have already been said, but I do not believe in the "once saved always saved" because I think it misleads many people into false assurance.

[Midtowner]

The Catholic Church believes a combination of faith and good works is necessary for salvation.

I tend to agree.

[Midtowner]

I'm confused on the tithing doctrine. Yes, it mentions it in the Old Testament, but how about the New Testament? Sorry, not there.

As for giving money directly to the Church and receiving "blessings" for it, I don't see that in the Bible.

(taken from biblestudy.org)
Heb. 7:12


God changed the law.


If God would not have changed the law, Christ could not be our High Priest (Heb. 7:11-14; 8:4). Anyone claiming that the Moral or Mosaic Laws are authoritative cannot claim Jesus as his High Priest.

Gal. 6:2



We must fulfill the law of Christ.

God's covenant with us is mediated by Christ (Heb. 8:6). It is composed of laws (Heb. 8:10). We must obey Christ to be saved (Heb. 5:9).


Jn. 12:48



Jesus' words (Gal. 6:2 the law of Christ; 2 Jn. 9 the doctrine of Christ) will judge man (cf. Ja. 1:25; 2:12).

People who receive the word of Jesus preached through the apostles repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins (Acts 2:38) to be saved (Acts 2:40-41).

1 Cor. 9:21



We are under law toward Christ.

2 Jn. 9


The doctrine of Christ sets forth Christ's law (cf. Gal. 6:2; Ja. 1:25).


We must obey the gospel of Christ (Heb. 5:9; 2 Th. 1:8).

Ja. 1:25


The perfect law of liberty is the law of Christ.


Liberty and perfection are in Christ (Gal. 2:4; Col. 1:28). Therefore Christ's law (1 Cor. 9:21; Gal. 6:2) is the perfect law of liberty.


Jesus said that we will be judged by His words (Jn. 12:48). And, James said that we will be judged by the law of liberty (Ja. 1:25; 2:12). Therefore, the words of Christ (spoken by Himself or through His apostles) constitute the law of liberty (cf. Gal. 6:2; 2 Jn. 9). The law of Christ and the law of liberty are synonymous.

***

So then aren't we picking and choosing scripture from the Old Testament to justify tithing?

(from the same site):

"The dedication of a tenth to God was recognized as a duty before the time of Moses. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek (Gen. 14:20; Heb. 7:6); and Jacob vowed unto the Lord and said, "Of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee." The first Mosaic law on this subject is recorded in Lev. 27:30-32. Subsequent legislation regulated the destination of the tithes (Num. 18:21-24, 26-28; Deut. 12:5, 6, 11, 17; 14:22, 23). The paying of the tithes was an important part of the Jewish religious worship. In the days of Hezekiah one of the first results of the reformation of religion was the eagerness with which the people brought in their tithes (2 Chr. 31:5, 6). The neglect of this duty was sternly rebuked by the prophets (Amos 4:4; Mal. 3:8-10)" (Smith's Bible Dictionary).

God changed the law after Christ's death (Heb. 7:12-14). We live under the law of Christ today.

Christians do not tithe (i.e., give 10%). Christians are commanded to give on the first day of the week as they have purposed in their hearts. See Financing the Work of the Church.

***

Discuss...

[mranderson]

"I'm confused on the tithing doctrine. Yes, it mentions it in the Old Testament, but how about the New Testament? Sorry, not there.

As for giving money directly to the Church and receiving "blessings" for it, I don't see that in the Bible. "

There are a lot of so called Biblical quotes that are not in the bible. Those are only myth and legand.

Example. The majority of the story of the birth of Christ is NOT in the bible. IT does not state in what facility the birth occured. It does not state the number of Wisemen there were or the gifts and many other things.

This is the reason I do not take most of the Bible as fact. (no pun intended) God only knows what REALLY happened. Stories change over generations.

Midtowner will not accept any other person's facts unless he has a source. That course is Channel Oklahoma.com's quiz from last week on Christmas.

[Midtowner]

"I'm confused on the tithing doctrine. Yes, it mentions it in the Old Testament, but how about the New Testament? Sorry, not there.

As for giving money directly to the Church and receiving "blessings" for it, I don't see that in the Bible. "

There are a lot of so called Biblical quotes that are not in the bible. Those are only myth and legand.

Example. The majority of the story of the birth of Christ is NOT in the bible. IT does not state in what facility the birth occured. It does not state the number of Wisemen there were or the gifts and many other things.

This is the reason I do not take most of the Bible as fact. (no pun intended) God only knows what REALLY happened. Stories change over generations.

Midtowner will not accept any other person's facts unless he has a source. That course is Channel Oklahoma.com's quiz from last week on Christmas.

Here's a source for the story of Jesus' birth.

Google is a wonderful thing. Try it sometime.

http://www.bible.ca/D-Xmas-story.htm

[Keith]

"I'm confused on the tithing doctrine. Yes, it mentions it in the Old Testament, but how about the New Testament? Sorry, not there.

Wrong!!

Luke 11:42 "But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

And...

Hebrews 7:4 "See how great he is! Abraham the patriarch gave him a tithe of the spoils."


"As for giving money directly to the Church and receiving "blessings" for it, I don't see that in the Bible. "

You probably need to look a little harder.

Malachi 3:10…Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Actually, when you give money to the church, you are actually giving it to the Lord to further his kingdom.

"There are a lot of so called Biblical quotes that are not in the bible. Those are only myth and legand."

The above is your opinion, not a fact

"This is the reason I do not take most of the Bible as fact. (no pun intended) God only knows what REALLY happened. Stories change over generations."

The Bible has been around for thousands of years, and nothing has changed. The verses, the stories, the prophesies.....they are all still in the Bible. They have never changed.

"The Catholic Church believes a combination of faith and good works is necessary for salvation."

I tend to strongly disagree with you. What is necessary for salvation is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. That means asking Jesus into your heart. Good works alone will never get you in to heaven.

Romans 10:9..."That if you confess with your mouth "Jesus Is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."


I will say that it doesn't matter whether it is in the Old Testament or the New Testament....both Testaments are part of the Bible. So, if it says it in the Old Testament, but not in the New Testament, it is still the Bible.

If nothing else, this gave me a good chance to really study some of these scriptures, and know that what I have said is what the Bible has said. Yes, the Bible was written by man, but it was inspired by God.

[Midtowner]

Do you worship the Trinity or the Bible Keith?

Luke 11:42 "But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

(it reads differently in the Catholic Bible)

Luke 11:42: "Woe to you Pharisees! You pay tithes of mint and of rue and of every garden herb, but you pay no attention to judgement and to love for God. These you should have done, without overlooking the others".

I think you're misreading the above quote. Clearly Jesus is pointing out the fact that the Pharisees are focusing too much on ceremonies and have forgotten that they are supposed to be worshipping God. I'm not really sure how you think this connects to tithing 10 percent. It simply doesn't.

(from http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/3658/tithing.html)
Bring the whole tithe…

“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows” (Malachi 3:10).

Here we have the tithing teachers’ favourite verse in the whole Bible. On this verse they hang most of their doctrine. But if we take a close look at the verse, we will find something very interesting.
Remember that there were four tithes in Israel under the Old Covenant. Which one is referred to here?

And the priest, the son of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the chambers of the storehouse (Nehemiah 10:38).

[ Note: The word ‘storehouse’ is translated as ‘treasure house’ in the KJV. The Hebrew is the same in both Nehemiah and Malachi, outsair, meaning a treasure or a store house. ]

Which of the four tithes is in view in Malachi?
The tithe payable by the Levites, not the tithes payable by the people. Malachi is not rebuking the people, he is rebuking the Levites.
When our modern day tithing teachers point this verse at the people, they are really pointing at themselves — except that most of them are too ignorant to recognise the fact.

As for works vs. faith, it's just a matter of denomination. Martin Luther and a few before him raised the same point. The Catholic Church for 2000 years has done quite well disagreeing with you. I agree with the Catholic Church. In my eyes, I'm right, you're wrong, we both know all the arguments and are not likely to change eachother's minds as this is a very fundamental aspect of each of our religions.

[Patrick]

Well, I won't touch on the other topics, because I think Keith has already expressed my opinions. But I will answer a question that was asked my Midtowner and directed at Keith.

Question: "Do you worship the Trinity or the Bible Keith?"

Answer: Both. It's all the same. John 1:1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

[Patrick]

In regards to tithing 10%:

Mathhew 23:23- "“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. "

Obviously Jesus is saying here that the Pharisees should be giving more time to matters like the law, mercy, and faithfulness. But, at the same time, Jesus says not to neglect giving the 10%. So obviously, Jesus see's the 10% as being important.

[Patrick]

Oh..mranderson mentioned that much of the birth of Christ was left out. Luke 2 pretty much describes everything in detail.

In regards to the "facility"- Luke 2:4-7...."4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. "

"11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ[a] the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

"16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. "


Well, obviously Jesus was born in a manger! The Bible tells us that!

------------
Now, about wisemen....well, I think popular culture over the years has created this idea that there were "3" wisemen. Why? Because it's easy to make a nativity scene using three since there were three different types of gifts presented.
The Bible just mentions wisemen and the gifts they brought.

Matthew 2 (various verses): "1After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem 2and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east[b] and have come to worship him.”

9After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east[e] went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. "


Apparently, wisemen (Magi) visited Jesus and brought the three types of gifts mentioned.

Any other questions?

[Keith]

I worship Jesus Christ and use the Bible as the blueprint of life. It doesn't surprise me that MidTowner disected every scripture, trying to prove me wrong, but it didn't work. I think he is misunderstanding the Bible.

Anyway, the Catholics are totally different than most denominations, especially due to the fact that they don't believe the entire Word of God...or at least that is what some of my Catholic friends have told me.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the Bible does talk about tithing 10%, and that 10% is to help further the Kingdom Of God. Whether it is in the New or Old Testament, the fact is, it is in the Bible. For Christians, if they are not giving 10% tithe to God, they are robbing him.

I didn't actually expect this to turn into a debate, because the Bible should never be debated. Plus. the original thread was a discussion about "once saved, always saved," and we have strayed off of the subject. The fact is, we all believe differently, and the things that have been posted on this thread will not change anybody's mind or beliefs.

[Midtowner]

I worship Jesus Christ and use the Bible as the blueprint of life. It doesn't surprise me that MidTowner disected every scripture, trying to prove me wrong, but it didn't work. I think he is misunderstanding the Bible.

Anyway, the Catholics are totally different than most denominations, especially due to the fact that they don't believe the entire Word of God...or at least that is what some of my Catholic friends have told me.

Well, if you want to talk about the "entire" word of God, you should be reading from a Catholic Bible -- we have more books in our version of the Bible. As for the charge that I "disect" it, I think you're insinuating that I twist words, etc. I do not do that. I am simply showing that your understanding of what is contained within that tome is not absolute. I'm saying that there are different interpretations to similar words. I mean, has it even dawned on you that you're reading from a bad translation in the first place?

There have been several translations of the Bible, each with its own deficiencies, and each containing different semantical nuances that are lost in translation. So as to the word of God even being certain, the book you're looking at right now is likely in many cases nowhere even close to the original. Take the Lord's Prayer for example -- appearing in both Matthew and Luke looking similar. Original sources uncovered over the years have shown horrible differences in Matthew and Luke's version with changes beginning around 325AD when Constantine announced Christianity as the State religion and continuing since then.

link: http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

The fact is that the Bible is the result of one of history's longest games of Telephone. The accounts in it were written by men in many cases after the fact and not finally assembled until about 200 years after Christ died and around 100 years after the latest author died and has changed a great deal since then. The Bible in my eyes is considered to be a general introduction and preface to God and your relationship with him through Jesus. It is a general accounting of what happened and despite its own self-approval found in Timothy, in my opinion and the opinion of MANY others is not itself an authoritive book and is really nothing special.

I do not worship the Bible. I worship Jesus Christ, God and the Holy Spirit. All else is extracurricular.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the Bible does talk about tithing 10%, and that 10% is to help further the Kingdom Of God. Whether it is in the New or Old Testament, the fact is, it is in the Bible. For Christians, if they are not giving 10% tithe to God, they are robbing him.

I didn't actually expect this to turn into a debate, because the Bible should never be debated. Plus. the original thread was a discussion about "once saved, always saved," and we have strayed off of the subject. The fact is, we all believe differently, and the things that have been posted on this thread will not change anybody's mind or beliefs.

The Bible should never be debated? Well, tell that to Martin Luther! Tell that to Calvin! The leaders of the great schism committed exactly the same "sin" that you think you're claiming we are right now. How's that for hipocrisy? How do you give money to God? You give it to a Church that does works in His name. That's all you can do. Tithing was a part of Babylonian law that was later translated into the Hebrew culture. It was a local law, and for the benefit of various churches (including mine) throughout history has been made into something it's not.

Also, from wikipedia using several Biblical Scholar regarding your NT accounts that there is some New Testament justification for tithing:

It is surprising how frequently the Matt. 23:23 passage has been misunderstood, because Jesus' words can not be construed to be an endorsement of the Pharisee's practice of tithing, not even in the context of spices. In fact, Jesus had no intention of making a statement about the practice of tithing per se at all. Jesus taught in parables, both to his circle of disciples and to the crowds which followed him. Parables cause the hearer to relate the moral derived from some common everyday situation to a specific subject being taught. For example, when Jesus spoke of "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" he certainly did not want to talk about sheep; his ministry was no "agricultural" exercise. When Jesus told the parables of the sower and the seed or that of the mustard seed he was not talking about farming, planting, or any agricultural subject. The parable of the maidens waiting for the arrival of the bridegroom and bride has really nothing to do with either preparations for a wedding celebration or the wise precaution of taking with one oil for one's lamp.

These examples illustrate Jesus' specific mode of moral instruction. He was talking neither about spices nor about tithing in Matt. 23:23. He was using an everyday example to show that the Pharisees were so involved in the minutiae, the nitty-gritty, of the Mosaic Law—and the interpretation and elaboration of it – by legal hair-splitting and chicanery (this is the meaning of 'pettifogging' in the translation of Matthew, above)—that their vision of the grand intent of Moses' Law was completely obscured. Jesus was contrasting minute unimportant detail with the grand sweep of the intent of the Law. The Pharisees tithed like every other good Jew (so probably did Jesus), and Jesus did use the word "tithe" in his example, but Jesus was not making a specific endorsement of tithing nor was he giving any guidelines about tithing spices. In fact, Jesus' comment really had nothing to do with the question of tithing at all.

As the NT has nothing to contribute to the subject of the historical origins of the "tithe," we are left with Abram the Hebrew and the ten-percent tribute he paid to Melchizedek. The tribute was standard and was considered completely normal by both men. It derived ultimately from Mesopotamian law, in which the esretu "one-tenth" had been enshrined for a millennium.

[Keith]

I guess you didn't read the last of my post. Let's get back to the original subject that everyone was discussing. This debate is fruitless and going nowhere.

[Midtowner]

I guess you didn't read the last of my post. Let's get back to the original subject that everyone was discussing. This debate is fruitless and going nowhere.

Fine.. salvation by faith alone? For the above stated reasons, if your only source for that is a book filled with seperate accounts and letters written 200 years before the fact, often preserved through verbal means, then going through numerous later additions and subtractions starting around 325AD when Constantine got his grimey paws on it, I find it lacking.

The above statements regarding the perfection of the Bible as a historical account or anything else stand. Do you choose to argue against such compelling evidence, or will you admit that the Bible is full of errors compared to the manuscript that appear to very clearly exist when we examine manuscript evidence that was included in today's canonized versions?

[Patrick]

Hey guys, I've really enjoyed the debate here. The reason I made this post about a controversial issue, was to try to generate some intellectual discussion in the religion forum. Thanks for participating.

[Keith]

Too many big words for me .

[Midtowner]

Too many big words for me .

www.dictionary.com

Enjoy.

[Patrick]

Thanks Midtowner...I actually use it frequently!