Plans announced for last pad in Lower Bricktown!

[fsusurfer]

Those are definitely good points. I do agree that they seem a bit high, but they also seem to be getting interest at those prices. We won't know until these places start closing how much they are really worth. Oklahoma City is a bid down market and it wouldn't surprise me to see these come down as well. These prices are high for Oklahoma City and higher than some other cities' downtowns, but are they higher than most cities high demand low inventory areas? Not really.

Downtown is still a very small and an immature market and what we're seeing now are the first new apartments with new amenities in a very long time. The area is really becoming an attraction and there is a lot of upside speculation going on. Again, I don't think we know the true worth of these properties, but I would be very surprised if any of them were introduced as affordable housing initially. I'm not saying that the prices aren't high, I'm just saying that it seems completely normal to me that they would be.

Good points. One problem I think has happend, is some of the price points were set a year and half to two years ago when 1) the real estate market was in a boomimg and 2) the hornets looked like they might become a permanent fixture which would increase the "value" of living downtown. The thing the perplexes me, is the price points of many of these places are above the amount that many people who are attracted to the bricktown area and who pump money into the area at all hours of the day can afford. (young professionals who are out in bricktown spending the money on the weekends, partying it up every night, shopping in the high end stores, ect.). I mean, I saw one advertisment for Maywood trying to get grandmothers to move in. I love my grandma, but I dont think grandmas are the type to pump money into downtown on a regular basis. Also, if companies are purchasing some of these places for out-of town guests to live in, in the long run does that really help to pump money into the local market. The apartment above me used to be rented out by a company. There was someone there maybe 3 days out of the week at most. They would come in town, go to work, come home and sleep, and then jump on a jet and were out of there a couple days later. Another problem I see is re-sale value. Once the "newness" factor wears off in 5-10 years, is a one bedroom condo really going to be able to sell for 300,000 dollars. I think we can all agree, OKC is growing, but it will be no NYC in the next 50 years. And on top of that, in 10-15 years who knows what sort of direction downtown may have taken. Many entertainment districs have been known to boom, then burn across the country. I know we all hope for the best, but points of interest can shift. Investment wise, I dont think its a smart decision. We'll see what happens, I bet your right that some price points will probably fall over the next year.

[stlokc]

Very good points.

If you want another perspective from a city that doesn't get quite as much attention in OKC as Dallas does:

I live in St. Louis, MO and the downtown here is probably 3-5 years ahead of OKC in terms of residential redevelopment. In the late 1990s as the first projects were getting off the ground, there were many of the same arguments about price points and affordability for young buyers. But the interesting thing is each project kept seling well and kept leading to more projects. Even at high prices. I couldn't understand this but a developer friend of mine said a market like that doesn't always follow what you think you know about supply and demand. The more people flow into a downtown, the more people think it becomes a viable option. So the supply begins to drive the demand, instead of the other way around. Only a few may want to be pioneers, but as more people begin to actually know people that live down there, more people's eyes get opened. There are now 10,000 living in downtown STL.

As for "grandma," I used to think the same thing. But my developer friend said people move to a downtown in waves. The first wave is the twenty something, but once the area gets stabilized, the next wave is empty nesters. A lot of the people buying in Downtown STL now are 55 year old couples whose kids are gone, and they want to be close to theaters, stadiums, etc. and downsize from big houses in the suburbs. And they do have a lot of money to spend in restaurants, way more than your average 28 year old with a $50K job.

Not saying OKC will develop the same way, but the ingredients seem to be getting themselves in place.

[BDP]

Again, solid points and very valid concerns.

the price points of many of these places are above the amount that many people who are attracted to the bricktown area and who pump money into the area at all hours of the day can afford.

Unfortunately, I think this is the case with many areas that have become "hip" and/or gentrified across the country. The young workers, artists, and hip businesses that end up making a once unfavorable area desirable once again, soon find that they can not afford their current digs and have to migrate elsewhere. Places like NYC, San Francisco, and Chicago have all had problems with the creative and young professional classes eventually being priced out of the very areas that they defined and made attractive.

In the case of downtown and bricktown, these prices may prevent the area from becoming the hip place to live that everyone is anticipating and marketing it as. If anything, I think these price points are set based on the idea that all of these projects will eventually create a truly unique and interesting place to live in OKC. Ironically, placing it out of reach of OKC's young workers may prevent what their selling coming to fruition.

Also, if companies are purchasing some of these places for out-of town guests to live in, in the long run does that really help to pump money into the local market. ... They... come in town, go to work, come home and sleep, and then jump on a jet and were out of there a couple days later.

Well, that's actually the best kind of money in terms of the city economy as a whole, because it truly is money coming into the economy instead of simply being reallocated to another sector. In effect, it is a true net gain. However, I think there is a valid concern that the specific district may not get as much of a long term gain form the situation and, in turn, the city's goal of creating a new lifestyle option in OKC is not met. Permanent residency goes much farther towards the vitality and, ultimately, the inherent attractiveness of an urban district. Let's be honest: downtown housing is not about price per square foot, as much of the city real estate is measured. It's about obtaining a lifestyle otherwise not available in the area.

And on top of that, in 10-15 years who knows what sort of direction downtown may have taken. Many entertainment districs have been known to boom, then burn across the country.

This is true. Right now, I think the outlook is good and these developments in and of themselves help with that outlook. In a way, they are justifying their own premiums. But they will have to find that balance for sustainability. That's why it's good for the developers themselves to have long term interests through their retail and office space leases and is why the city should favor mixed use developments. If half a building is leased to businesses, then the developer has an interest to sell all of its residential properties to keep them full to make the lease properties more attractive and, in turn, sustain a better long term cash flow for the property.

I dont think grandmas are the type to pump money into downtown on a regular basis.

It depends on the grandma, obviously, but it probably isn't the right direction to go. However, it does seem that empty nesters is the angle many developers are going after now to sustain their high asking prices that were initially inflated by young professionals. It's kind of funny compared to 10 years ago, but older retirees are becoming an important sector for urban developers.

Another problem I see is re-sale value. Once the "newness" factor wears off in 5-10 years, is a one bedroom condo really going to be able to sell for 300,000 dollars

No one can say for sure. If these places can create a vital downtown residential strict that has 24/7 feel, I think they will hold their value, because, if for nothing else, you won't be able to get that life anywhere else in Oklahoma. If 3% of the housing mix is downtown and 5% of the buyers are interested in urban living, they will hold their value. I don't think those are outrageous numbers for OKC, so it could happen.

Investment wise, I dont think its a smart decision.

I think I agree. This is not a flippers market. I'd look to the Paseo or University Park for that. The truth is that OKC is not going to be a get rich off of your house type market anyway. Downtown housing is mostly a lifestyle choice and these prices reflect the promise of a lifestyle that downtown can not quite offer yet. For these places to hold their value, I'd say your going to need to see more retail, a grocery store, some corner stores/delis, etc. within walking distances or connected by easy public transit very soon. I think if all that stuff was already in place, we wouldn't worry so much about these valuations. Basically, the idea of urban living is built into these prices and the sustained value of the properties completely depends on that vision becoming a reality in the next 2-3 years, imo. Beyond that, if some of the core to shore ideas come to be and MAPS 3 brings some new amenities to the area, we could in fact see some appreciation, but I’m thinking that won’t happen until 2012, when the freeway is moved.

[writerranger]

What a great thread. I wish most could have this kind of give and take without all the anger and pettiness.
[on edit: After reading the thread through again - I realize there was one notable exception]

There have been some things written by several that have helped me understand how this may all play out. A lot of things I hadn't thought about before really made a light bulb go on for me. It was interesting to hear about the St. Louis experience too. Good stuff in this thread.

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[fsusurfer]

Good information BDP. I think we both kind-of see it the same way. At those prices, its sort-of a roll of the dice as to whether downtown will be able to sustain the level of interest that will draw such a high price on housing. One thing about St. Louis is the fact they have a professional baseball team and football team located pretty close to downtown which definatly ups the "value" of living in the area. I think we've already seen one condo (however not directly downtown) that hasn't exactly done as well as intended, the Classen. I believe at the begining they were all meant to be sold, however now they are trying to lease out many of the units and from what I've heard there are still quite a few available.

[stlokc]

FSUsurfer,
You are right about St. Louis having pro football and baseball (and hockey) downtown. However, the most important thing helping the revitalization of downtown St. Louis is the large concentration of offices. I have written about this in other posts - when you have big corporate HQ (AG Edwards, Purina, Anheuser-Busch, AT&T Regional etc.) and dozens of large law firms and banks, not to mention the daily newspaper downtown, than you have a mass of young, educated, relatively affluent people already in the neighborhood ten hours a day.

The things that are going on in downtown OKC and Bricktown are fantastic! But entertainment tastes are fleeting. Ultimately you can't rely on restaurants, retail, ballparks, etc. Downtown has to re-build its business base and the city as a whole has to attract or grow more of the types of companies that employ people who would want/be able to afford to live downtown. I know that's not the topic of this thread, but it is so essential. Everybody talks endlessly about the entertainment aspects of MAPS, etc. but the less sexy corporate offices are what is really going to make a neighborhood work. People like living close to where they work.

[jbrown84]

I think you make a strong point, stlokc. I don't know if it's a MAPS thing, but I would like to see the city give incentives to companies for locating downtown instead of by Quail Springs. If Hertz and Dobson and Chesapeake were downtown, we could have a couple more towers at least.

[writerranger]

I think you make a strong point, stlokc. I don't know if it's a MAPS thing, but I would like to see the city give incentives to companies for locating downtown instead of by Quail Springs. If Hertz and Dobson and Chesapeake were downtown, we could have a couple more towers at least.

I'm not sure that having the large lifestyle office campus is such a bad thing for Oklahoma City. Every great city has at least one, and it makes the city - as a whole - look more economically vibrant than to have all of the big corporations downtown. Not to mention it's been a boon for retail and eateries along Western. Pros and cons, I know. In the long run though, I kind of like the Chesapeake campus.

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[stlokc]

EXACTLY!!!

Incentives might be a good start. I don't know how that would work.

However, I think it's also a question of corporate "peer pressure." And it can't really be regulated. It has to be a mindset within the community. Dobson, Hertz, Express Personnel, Chesapeake aren't critcized (well, maybe Chesapeake is a little bit) for building the way they do. The Oklahoman can't take them to task (as happens with the daily paper here) because they themselves left Downtown twenty years ago.

I also find it unusual that OKC's biggest ad agencies are not downtown. If there was ever a "creative" industry, that's it. And Ackerman McQueen and Jordan, for example are very large players in their industry.

I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm sure the city is taking the tack that all the entertainment activity downtown gets people talking and over time builds the "brand " that changes the mindset, unfortunately that may take a generation...

[stlokc]

Writeranger,
It's not a bad thing to have the Quail Springs development per se. Every city does have that kind of office park. And every new company does not have to be downtown. It just seems to me like you almost never hear of a company expanding downtown, except for Devon, God bless them.

The cities that most of the country want to live in have active, exciting cores. That is what defines them and makes them interesting. As safe and clean as Memorial Road is (and I grew up off of Memorial Road), it's no different than any other suburb. I want my hometown to have interesting and prosperous urban possibilities. And it will be downtown, for better or worse that defines OKC.

[jbrown84]

I'm not sure that having the large lifestyle office campus is such a bad thing for Oklahoma City. Every great city has at least one, and it makes the city - as a whole - look more economically vibrant than to have all of the big corporations downtown. Not to mention it's been a boon for retail and eateries along Western. Pros and cons, I know. In the long run though, I kind of like the Chesapeake campus.

-----------

I agree with you about Chesapeake. I was talking moreso about the other two.

I also find it unusual that OKC's biggest ad agencies are not downtown. If there was ever a "creative" industry, that's it. And Ackerman McQueen and Jordan, for example are very large players in their industry.

That is unusual. I know Ackerman is in the top few floors of Valliance Bank. Where is Jordan? I can tell you that I work for a rapidly growing ad agency (we have St. Anthony Hospital, John Holt Auto Group, Brewer Carpet One, Floor Trader, and others) and as soon as we outgrow our current facility we will likely move to a Midtown location.

[shane453]

The Centennial is currently the ONLY condo opportunity in the middle of Bricktown, on the canal. That's quite a niche. There is the announced 12-story project across Reno, but that's nowhere near being a sure thing. So 300k for the rarest location downtown in an neighborhood that is starving for residential development... Not bad. PLUS, it has a swimming pool on the roof and each condo comes with two parking spaces.

I think the Center Pointe Market project isn't bad. It will fill in space between Toby Keith and Harkins, add some retail and office space. It looks a ton better than some of the other buildings in Lower Bricktown. Of course, I'm just an optimist about Lower Bricktown and not a member of the camp that thinks nothing good can ever happen there.

I've seen renderings of the McDermid project you guys are talking about at OkMet.

[writerranger]

The Centennial is currently the ONLY condo opportunity in the middle of Bricktown, on the canal. That's quite a niche. There is the announced 12-story project across Reno, but that's nowhere near being a sure thing. So 300k for the rarest location downtown in an neighborhood that is starving for residential development... Not bad. PLUS, it has a swimming pool on the roof and each condo comes with two parking spaces.

I guess we all have our ideas on what $300,000.00 (plus) should give you for a condo. For me, it would be something other than Bricktown OKC, with a pool on the roof and two parking places. And I love Oklahoma City, but still.

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[fsusurfer]

I guess we all have our ideas on what $300,000.00 (plus) should give you for a condo. For me, it would be something other than Bricktown OKC, with a pool on the roof and two parking places. And I love Oklahoma City, but still.

------------------------------

Even if I did have the money to afford a $2000.00+ a month mortgage payment, I'd have to agree with you there..

[AFCM]

I totally support condos going up in downtown, but am I the only one who's a little bitter about condos going up on the canal? I thought Bricktown was supposed to be an entertainment district for everyone. Now that everything is finalized, I say more power to you if you wish to live on the canal; I would if I had the money. While I like the idea of a bowling alley, coffee shop, and retail on the lower level, I'm just not in favor of letting people shack up on a canal that was supposed to be used for entertainment.

To save this thread from going a whole other direction, I won't mention names; however, it seems like certain people are exploiting prime land just to make a buck. I'm sorry if I come off as pessimistic. I'm quite the opposite. I believe in Bricktown and Oklahoma City, but this is burning me in the same way as seeing a Sonic HQ right on the canal.

To finish this post on a positive note, I just want to give it up to the folks that wrote some very insightful and creative reads. Great posts!

[shane453]

What's the difference between a Sonic office building (with retail at ground level) and the leasable office space that is all over the place in Bricktown?

If you're going to have 2 stories of retail/entertainment, why not stack some condos on top to add some other opportunities on the canal? We can't fill midrise after midrise with clubs and restaurants and gift shops.

[jbrown84]

Shane is right. If we can't even fill ground floor retail space in the Sonic Building, what else could be there?

[metro]

Yeah AFCM, to make the area long-term feasible, you have to have offices and residential, in fact, WAYYYYYYYYY more of it. Just look at how the West End is nearly dead in Dallas right now. Very similar to Bricktown. You can only have so much restaurants and bars, after that you need the people who are there day after day supporting such an area. I agree Hogan and other developers are wasting prime land and not using it to the best of their abilities or best use of the land, but we do need much more residential.

[Spartan]

It's nice to complain when you've done nothing for Bricktown yourself.

For me, it's the first decent project we've seen from Hogan all these years. Harumph.

[BDP]

Not to mention it's been a boon for retail and eateries along Western.

It's been a boon to property owners who have sold to Chesapeake. Other than that, Chesapeake is pretty insular, as campuses are designed to be. They work and eat on campus, so it's not like it brings a lot commerce into the area, just increased property value due to the premiums Chesapeake pays. And it's not like that area was dead before. If anything there is less there now than before.

I thought Bricktown was supposed to be an entertainment district for everyone.

To be fair, just about every new development has had some facet that serves the public. Residential works hand in hand with the entertainment services to create a viable and sustainable district.

The main hindrance to that area now is that there was and is no comprehensive retail plan, even though lower bricktown started as a blank slate and could have been anything. With very few exceptions retail depends on critical mass. It is very hard to bring in traffic and customers on your own, especially if you're a specialty or niche retailer. As stlokc pointed out with residential, the more retail space there is, the more viable the area looks to retailers.

This project looks good and should help, but is it enough? Just eyeballing that lot tells me that it is not. It doesn't seem to be big enough to add any critical mass. But I agree with Spartan that it, along with the Centennial, are Hogan's best efforts. That is, if the market actually gets built. He wants 50% occupancy before he'll start. Again, this is just another example of Hogan being completely unwilling to reward the city for awarding him prime publicly enhanced land. In my mind, he should be building twice as big and taking more risk himself, since the city took such a risk on him. Instead, he has probably stunted retail's growth in the area with his conservative piecemeal pad lot strategy.

If we can't even fill ground floor retail space in the Sonic Building, what else could be there?

People want lots of options and only several options can create a retail destination for shoppers. There simply isn't the space to even reach a critical mix of retailers, even if they wanted to be there. They can't fill the Sonic Building, because lower bricktown is not a retail destination nor is it prime or designed to be. Hogan has not planned it to be that. He may want it, but he hasn't taken any risk to get it there and that will be necessary if we want to build a retail center from scratch.

I don’t know what kind of leases he is offering, but, like the condo prices, he may be trying to lease it as a retail destination, when it is not even close to that at this point. I imagine that the potential sales per square foot do not gel with his lease terms at this point. I can’t confirm that, but, if true, we should be more worried about that than high condo prices. Whereas a condo can give superficial returns in obtaining a new lifestyle and, therefore justify a premium to some, no retailer is going to lose money in a bricktown location just because they think it’s cool to be there.

[AFCM]

I totally support the idea of more offices and residents being located downtown, but I just don't like the idea of them being on the canal. Sure, we can't continue to fill midrises with restaurants, gift shops, etc., which is why we need to start thinking outside of the box. The canal was put in place to cement an entertainment district, and all we have so far are restaurants and bars. We could be doing so much more. Just because Hogan can't think of any other concepts doesn't mean we should just settle for the next thing that comes to mind.

Let me say again; I would like to see more residential establishments downtown, just not on the canal. And Spartan, as a taxpayer I did contribute to the development of the canal and Bricktown. I've been away for the past couple of years and as a student, I'm certainly not in the position to take the reigns with funding Bricktown developments. However, this was Oklahoma City's "Garden of Eden" and had so much potential. Am I wrong for being disgusted with what has taken place in Lower Bricktown? If I am unsound for voicing my discontent with Lower Bricktown and Randy Hogan, at least I can take comfort in knowing I'm with good company.

I respect everyone's opinion on the matter, but this is just how I feel.

[jbrown84]

Disgusted is too strong a word for me. Overall I think he could have done much better, especially with everything east of the Centennial Plaza core area, but I wouldn't use the word disgusted.

[AFCM]

Jbrown, the word "disgusted" doesn't apply solely to the subpar developments. While the developments have been substandard, I'm particularly unhappy with the way Lower Bricktown has been exploited for personal gain. The taxpayers of OKC deserve better than what's being established.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions, let me just state that I am happy to see dirt moving near downtown Oklahoma City. I know we're light years ahead of where we were ten years ago, but when I had golden opportunities and produced crap as a kid, I would be scolded for doing a "half-a**" job. Why should Hogan be immune from criticism? What we're seeing is a "half-a**" job on a major scale, and Hogan's banking big. Some people have even gone as far as to cite corruption and illegal activities have taken place. Without direct evidence, I won't go as far as accusing anyone of any wrongdoing, but if you ask my opinion, I certainly don't like what has become of Lower Bricktown.

With all of this being said, please take the above into consideration when I use the word "disgusted".

[SpectralMourning]

Jbrown, the word "disgusted" doesn't apply solely to the subpar developments. While the developments have been substandard, I'm particularly unhappy with the way Lower Bricktown has been exploited for personal gain. The taxpayers of OKC deserve better than what's being established.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions, let me just state that I am happy to see dirt moving near downtown Oklahoma City. I know we're light years ahead of where we were ten years ago, but when I had golden opportunities and produced crap as a kid, I would be scolded for doing a "half-a**" job. Why should Hogan be immune from criticism? What we're seeing is a "half-a**" job on a major scale, and Hogan's banking big. Some people have even gone as far as to cite corruption and illegal activities have taken place. Without direct evidence, I won't go as far as accusing anyone of any wrongdoing, but if you ask my opinion, I certainly don't like what has become of Lower Bricktown.

With all of this being said, please take the above into consideration when I use the word "disgusted".

Very good points presented. I don't think we all are really capable of fully realizing what we're onto with Bricktown and we can't let second-rate developers hamper that. I think that's why I was so excited to see the possibility of an extension of Bricktown south of I-40 in the Core to Shore plan. Let's hope they realize how good of an idea that is. If a true Lower Bricktown (or South Bricktown?) is created with extremely proactive, progressive developers, then maybe those "up the road" can see what they're missing.

On a side note, Bricktown probably would be the best-served area with a small grocery store. Maybe this would be the area to see it done.

[Spartan]

If people on this forum feel so passionately why don't they join together what money they do have and build something the way they think it should be done.

It's called putting your money where your mouth is.