MAPS III Redux

[oudirtypop]

What qualifications does this venture79 guy have that makes you think he is ligit anyway?

Dallas is not all these people think it is. It is just one of dozens of cities that have rail systems. We should not judge our needs on just one city.

mranderson, what qualification do you have that makes you think you are "ligit". From everything i have read from you, you are a pessimistic, anti-texan, okc is god kinda guy.

I have grown up in OKC all of my life. I go to dallas monthly with my wife. I hate to say it, but until OKC is even 1/4 the size of dfw metro, or has even 1/4th the commerce, or even 1/4 the population, or even 1/4 the sports teams, or even ....so on and so on...until all of that happens, we will continue to look at them for a model. thats what you do in life, you find someone or something that is doing what you want to do better, and figure out why and mold your system to work more like that one.

I like OKC how it is and where its going, but it's definitly no dallas!

[mranderson]

mranderson, what qualification do you have that makes you think you are "ligit". From everything i have read from you, you are a pessimistic, anti-texan, okc is god kinda guy.

I have grown up in OKC all of my life. I go to dallas monthly with my wife. I hate to say it, but until OKC is even 1/4 the size of dfw metro, or has even 1/4th the commerce, or even 1/4 the population, or even 1/4 the sports teams, or even ....so on and so on...until all of that happens, we will continue to look at them for a model. thats what you do in life, you find someone or something that is doing what you want to do better, and figure out why and mold your system to work more like that one.

I like OKC how it is and where its going, but it's definitly no dallas!

You have, as of this post, 49 posts to your credit. I have over 4500. That obviously says you are a newcomer to this board. Not only am I all but a founding member of OKCTalk, I have also been on boards for nearly ten years advocating the change and improvement of Oklahoma City. This venture79 guy, who, by the way, is about 26 or 27 as opposed to by 52 years of age, comes on this board and in a single thread, destroys nearly a decade of work that not only I have done, but many others on this board both past and present. We have a following. We are established. You nor venture are. THAT is my qualification. Venture, when asked, has ignored the question of what qualifies him.

Plus. Again. READ MY POSTS CONCERNING DALLAS. I SAID WE NEED TO COMPARE OTHER CITIES AND STATES AND NOT JUST TEXAS AND DALLAS!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pete]

Officials hear downtown ideas
Consultants present plans for ‘core to shore' development after I-40 realignment in 2012.

By John Estus
Staff Writer

Changing the downtown landscape by adding a major university, large urban park, new convention center and extensive residential and retail developments are among ideas Oklahoma City officials are considering for a major redevelopment between downtown and the Oklahoma River.

Consultants hired by the city presented a concept plan Wednesday to Core to Shore Steering Committee members who embraced some of the ideas but were skeptical about others.

"We're not planning for the city that is. We're planning for the city that will be,” Mayor Mick Cornett said.

The 35-member committee has met five times in recent months to discuss future use for the 590-acre area that will be affected when Interstate 40 is realigned.

Redevelopment projects in the area were scheduled to begin after the I-40 relocation concluded in 2010, but the Oklahoma Department of Transportation announced Tuesday that the new highway won't be finished until 2012.

Large park anchors plan

Consultant Sara Jane Maclennan, who helped guide Denver officials through a similar project in the 1990s, told committee members about the success of Millennium Park in Chicago and recommended Oklahoma City officials look to that park as inspiration.

Millennium Park is in Chicago's downtown Loop, and Maclennan said it's a perfect example of how a dense downtown area can energize an open park area.

Sketches show a park area stretching from Myriad Gardens south to the Oklahoma River flanked by new retail and residential developments. The idea is to create a line of sight from the core of downtown to the shore of the river, Maclennan said.

Committee member Ann Simank, the city's Ward 6 councilwoman, supported the park plan but called for a more unique approach. She said funding city parks has been a problem in the past and voters would need to be presented with something different and dynamic to gain their support.

University debated

Committee members — made up of city leaders, local business owners and residents — expressed the most concern about whether having a major university downtown was a good idea. The concept calls for a 30,000 student university with student housing to cover the area south of Bricktown.

The skeptics were concerned the area couldn't support another university with the University of Oklahoma in Norman and Oklahoma State University in Stillwater in such close proximity in addition to smaller universities in the metro area such as Oklahoma City University and the University of Central Oklahoma.

Some suggested an athletic complex instead of the university.

Living, shopping, working

A larger convention center with a hotel is shown south of the Ford Center in the sketches. Committee members were supportive of that idea as well as the proposed boulevard shown running between the two buildings to replace the existing I-40.

Included in sketches are a transit center south of Bricktown, a major retail development south of Myriad Gardens and high-rise residential towers south of the proposed park.

The committee meets next on March 7, and a public meeting is set for April 10.

[Easy180]

In order for a light rail system to work, the commuting habits of local citizens would need to change. Unfortunately, too many people like their cars and traffic in OKC is really not that bad at all. The highway system is one of the better laid out networks for a city this size. About the only thing that really needs to be improved is a east side loop, and improvements made to certain sections (I-35/240 intersection changed - coming, I-44/240 improved, etc).

So the best recipe for success is to make it a viable secondary option, but also one that caters to tourism. Some may want a typical light rail setup...I personally would rather see a monorail system - much like Las Vegas - setup. The monorail system would be easier to integrate in densely developed areas as their footprints are really minimal except for stations. It is also easier to wrap and integrate these with existing structures you want to connect.

It may be more expensive...but no worries of rail lines and having to make massive changes to existing infrastructure (rail crossings, overpasses, etc). You can run the monorail lines virtually anywhere and over any existing roads, buildings, etc. Of course it all depends. Some figures have light rail at 1/3rd the cost of a monorail system...but it all comes down to what is best for the city, what will actually work, etc.

The Monorail Society homepage some info...yes it is an interest group

The other side of the coin... Light Rail Now!

Yeah this venture post just screams of inexperience and immaturity ...Has a solid point about cars....Not sure of how many would be willing to give up the freedom of a car to do light rail especially with the glaring lack of traffic around the metro...Highway lanes are being added to deal with future growth

Bigger fish to fry than light rail imo

[jbrown84]

The university idea is great but does that really happen that way. A city just says we want a University in our downtown with 30,000 students. Build it!

Just seems kind of crazy. Perhaps the city could build new downtown facilities for OCU or OBU's graduate campus which just opened in The Triangle. That seems more feasible.

Vince Orza did a column in the Gazette on this subject. I will try to post it.

[jbrown84]

MAPS 3?

Wednesday, February 07, 2007
Vince Orza
Nearly two decades ago, President George H.W. Bush made the promise “no new taxes,” which gave every other politician cover to make the same promise. Then Oklahoma City Mayor Ron Norick didn’t follow; instead, he led with an innovative and visionary plan to rehabilitate downtown. Norick showed guts and real leadership in convincing Edward L. Gaylord, publisher of The Oklahoman, to support what would become MAPS. Once Mr. Gaylord signed on, other leaders followed suit and the MAPS project received overwhelming support.

The genius of MAPS was that it gave voters something they could see and thus be able to measure the benefits of paying the extra penny in sales tax. We got a ballpark, the canal that led to Bricktown’s development and a revamped, state-of-the-art Civic Center Music Hall that would attract the nation’s finest concerts and plays, along with a spectacular new library. This was the foundation for people to believe in their government’s ability to accomplish what it promised. As a result of the success of MAPS, Mayor Kirk Humphreys followed with MAPS for Kids, promising to rebuild the city’s public school facilities. Once again, voters supported the program overwhelmingly. In both cases, voters could envision what they were paying for and measure the progress.

Oklahoma City has enjoyed nearly 20 years of growth and redevelopment as a result of MAPS. Now, Mayor Mick Cornett is trying to take MAPS one step further. However, rather than telling us what he wants MAPS 3 to be, he has asked us to tell him. Voters are being asked what the next big investment should be that will make Oklahoma City an American leader. Here are a few items to consider:

Cornett wants to make OKC an attractive venue for NCAA events, but the city isn’t home to an NCAA university. Norman and Stillwater own those titles. This is part of the reason Oklahoma City University is looking at rejoining the NCAA, which could result in OKC becoming the beneficiary of basketball, wrestling, baseball and other NCAA tournaments and events.

The new, revitalized and prospering OCU has yet another opportunity to help put Oklahoma City on the national map. The American Academy of Dramatic Arts is discussing collaboration with the new Wanda L. Bass School of Music. OCU’s long, rich music history has attracted this Broadway and Hollywood icon. Their collaboration could result in OKC becoming a starting point for many Broadway plays, casting calls and entertainment leaders. MAPS 3 could be helpful to this project.

MAPS 3 also could help Oklahoma City steal the thunder of Nashville, Tenn., and Austin, Texas’ jazz and country music connections by capitalizing on our many renowned performers. Or, OKC could draw upon the many brilliant University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State University, OCU, Oklahoma City Community College, Rose State College and other college and university faculty members. We could form a center to study business, politics, economics and science by funding a think tank that brings world leaders here to create innovative solutions to problems facing our nation and the world.

MAPS 3 also could help fund the creation of “Oklahoma City: The City of Festivals.” Imagine if we became home to several two- and three-day celebrations honoring the men and women of our military, police and firefighting forces, and civic clubs, as well as educators. Think about the hundreds of thousands of people who would visit our city and patronize our hotels, restaurants and malls, generating jobs, incomes and millions of dollars in tax revenues. Oklahoma City would make national news as the collecting point honoring these unsung heroes. MAPS 3 could extend the canal through downtown into the Myriad Botanical Gardens, connecting to the river. If it were properly landscaped, it could rival the River Walk in San Antonio, Texas.

No doubt you have ideas for MAPS 3 as well: new and better roads and bridges, scholarships, parks. Let the mayor know what you think. Let’s keep the momentum going.

Orza is dean of the Meinders School of Business at Oklahoma City University.




Some of his ideas seem a little too abstract for MAPS. A think-tank?? But I like the idea of a canal extension/landscaping update, and if OCU really is estabishing some kind of connection with the AADA, that's a huge thing but I'm not sure how he is suggesting MAPS get involved.

[Pete]

Yes, the idea of a huge new university downtown doesn't make practical sense.

First of all, a city can't make that happen... Who is going to just build a college when there isn't a need? If anything, there are too many colleges in and around OKC. They are all competing with each other for students and funding. And the state already has big challenges with the colleges scattered around OK.

The only thing remotely feasible would be relcating OSU/OKC or OKC Community College, but the latter has a big investment in infrastructure and it would be a strong disservice to south OKC to pull them out of there.

OCU is close, as is the HSC and OU and UCO are only about 20 minutes away.

I'm surprised this was included in any sort of proposal because it seems very far-fetched and not well thought out.

[floater]

Great cities often have great universities. IMO OKC is in desperate need of a research/technology institute on par with Georgia Tech. Those meeting attendees are worried about saturation, but if you think that the education market really is worldwide, a smaller (7-10K) private institution with a stellar reputation I think is more in order.

I think another grand performing arts hall associated with OCU located with downtown would be great. But the think tank idea, no.

[jbrown84]

a smaller (7-10K) private institution with a stellar reputation I think is more in order.

I agree, but once again, you can't just build that like you build an arena, a canal, or even a research center. How often do you see completely new colleges start up? Not very. I definitely agree that we don't need any more state-owned schools. There are already too many.

If OCU really wants to go NCAA, they may have to build new facilites at a different location such as this. They are completely landlocked where they are.

[Pete]

IMO OKC is in desperate need of a research/technology institute on par with Georgia Tech.

OU, which is only 18 miles from downtown OKC, is already doing this with their research campus, new engineering facilities, weather center, etc.

We need to put resources into our existing university system and try and better leverage it for economic growth.

The Silicon Valley and the Research Triangle in NC all grew up around universities and then greatly contributed to the larger cities nearby. This is much more the model we should be looking at -- the school does not have to be located downtown for this to happen.

[floater]

I agree, but once again, you can't just build that like you build an arena, a canal, or even a research center. How often do you see completely new colleges start up? Not very. I definitely agree that we don't need any more state-owned schools. There are already too many.

Oh, sure. It's definitely not a MAPS project. It's not something that happens overnight, and what I envision isn't an undergraduate college. I still think there is no shortage of technology research happening in central Oklahoma. Boston has MIT and Harvard, why can't we have more topnotch research occur in OKC? And Malibu, I do consider OU sometimes, but their research in weather and engineering occurs in Norman. It would be Norman where sectors form, not OKC. I think the OU Medical Center and Presby Research are fantastic, but it would be nice if OKC's research activity not be limited to the biosciences. And it doesn't have to be a state institution.

[Pete]

Actually, MIT and Harvard are in Cambridge.

OKC and Norman are growing closer together all the time and I'd like to see OKC have more of a relationship with OU.

[Pete]

They posted some renderings of the ideas submitted on okc.gov:

http://okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/...eb_concept.jpg

http://okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/...concept_nw.jpg

http://okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/...concept_ne.jpg

[Theo Walcott]

I do like the way that looks, and they have actually integrated a series of soccer fields into this idea, which I had earlier discussed.

All that is really lacking is a proposal for a soccer/entertainment outdoor stadium to the south of the river. Throw that in there, and it's looking pretty incredible!

[Theo Walcott]

I mean put a 20-22,000 seat stadium instead of that ampitheater in the diagram just across the river, and Oklahoma City will be regularly hosting the MLS all-star and championship matches.

Talk about great publicity.

[TStheThird]

I am mixed about the university. It would be great to have a huge influx of young people living downtown. I am not so sure that it needs to be research minded. We have the Health Science Complex with tons of research. We have OU not far away. It seems to me that we should add a university that feels a void.

I am thinking something more along the lines of The Oklahoma School of Design. Have a university that specializes in Interior Design, Architecture, Urban Planning, Landscape Architecture, Fashion Design, etc. You could also add in Culinary Arts, graphic design and so on. You could also offer masters degrees in a lot of these fields.

Imagine producing a lot of amazing talent in these areas. If even a small percentage of the graduates stayed in OKC, great things could happen. In the long run, it could also bring a lot of talent to OKC. Just a few thoughts...

[jbrown84]

I am thinking something more along the lines of The Oklahoma School of Design. Have a university that specializes in Interior Design, Architecture, Urban Planning, Landscape Architecture, Fashion Design, etc. You could also add in Culinary Arts, graphic design and so on. You could also offer masters degrees in a lot of these fields.

I like that idea. These are programs that aren't offered very many places in Oklahoma, if at all. That would definitely fill a void a bring the young, creative class to OKC downtown. Maybe it could be the Oklahoma Institue of Arts and Design and it could have not just a graduate and undergrad campus, but offer classes to kids and adults as well as have a museum of contemporary art and design. I think that could work, but it would be a risk because you have to start small as far as students go and it would take a lot of private funding. I can see MAPS building the initial facilities, particularly the museum, but it would have to have additional private funding and be a private university.

As far as this design goes, it's starting to lean away from some of the things that I like. We need a huge park that covers Robinson to Walker from the boulevard to the river. Even that big it wouldn't be our biggest city park and not near the size of NY's Central Park or London's Hyde Park, which is what we should be aiming for.

Many people don't realize Central Park as well as the lesser-known Prospect Park in Brooklyn are completely man-made. The lakes, ponds, streams are as man-made as our canal and many of the trees were planted. There's no reason we shouldn't aim for something on the level of these parks. Another good example is San Francisco's Golden Gate Park. If done right, this could be the centerpiece of downtown, and it should be.

I think it should be called Redbud Park in honor of our state tree, and of course many Redbuds would be planted there. Imagine how the park would look in April/May. I've scouted out this area between Robinson and Walker and there isn't much worth keeping besides the Community Center across from the Little Flower Church and of course Union Station. There are many good size trees that MUST be kept, with some exception to eliminate the appearance of small lots where trees were around houses. There is also some varied terrain that should be kept, and the terrain should be made more hilly like was done with Myriad Gardens. Here's the elements I envision:

THEODORE ROOSEVELT SQUARE

Roosevelt Square would be immediately south of the boulevard. It's named for Teddy Roosevelt, one of our greatest presidents and who doesn't have anything significant named for him in OKC. At it's center would be a large fountain. The square would be mostly stone-paved, but have some trees and landscaping. The eastern end and western end would each have matching buildings in Greek Revival or Beaux Arts style (something that would be very classy and not get torn down in 50 years). One building could house a new International Photography Hall of Fame and the other could have a Historical Society or City Arts Center, or perhaps the idea someone suggested of a Ralph Ellison Center.

THE GATE

The gate would be a large archway on the south of Roosevelt Square, as an entrance to the rest of the park. Immediately on it's other side would be...

THE NORTH WATER

A large lake with a natural shape and surrounded by trees. The lake would be sunken, similar to the Myriad Gardens lake.

THE PROMENADE

The promenade is a formal plaza that spans Robinson between the boulevard and the new I-40, directly across from the new Convention Center. It would be street level and have perfect parallel rows of trees. The inside of the Promenade would have a stone wall that drops off directly to the lake, with several overlooks jutting out into the water.

LEGENDS PLAZA

In front of Union Station, which could now house anything from an event center to an arts center or another kind of museum, is Legends Plaza. The plaza would have a grand stone stairway leading down to the North water. At the top would be a street level paved area with bronze (no FIBERGLASS!!!) statues of legendary (late) Oklahomans. There would be a limited access street between it and Union Station, similar to the drive in front of the Civic Center.

I-40 PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE

A nice bridge strictly for pedestrians crossing the interstate and connecting the North and South sections.

THE GROVE

Directly south of the crosstown would be the Grove, a thick stand of trees with walking paths throughout. In the northwest corner is...

THE LAGOON

The lagoon is a smaller pond in the grove, closer to street level. There would be small stone bridge crossing just above where the water goes over a small waterfall and continues down a stream.

THE GREEN

The Green is a large open space for relaxing, playing, outdoor concerts, etc. Just grass with maybe a bandshell against Robinson.

THE SOUTH WATER

South of The Green is the South Water, which is lower than the Lagoon and fed by the stream connecting them. There would be a bike/walk path all the way around it.

[floater]

That's a great plan, jbrown. I think the park is the part of the Core-to-Shore area that will have to be planned with great thought. There a lot of ingredients to this park that can make it the heart of the city. I like your naming strategies.

I still think OKC needs to have another research institution. This is SO important for a knowledge-based economy. We can't expect to live on oil and gas and manufacturing. A city our size needs a broader technology economy than the biosciences; I would like to see that research occur downtown.

I also like the idea of the design school, with the kinds of programs mentioned. I think this type of school and other educational/arts institutions would be great components to the park, just as the Met is important to Central Park. An elementary school would be nice too, going a long way toward making Riverside a traditional family neighborhood. It would lengthen the stay for young couples living downtown.

One of consultants backed a Millenium Park-type park. I can't second that enough.

By the way, my concept for the Ralph Ellison Literary Center would have it on NE 23rd, an area that desperately needs traffic from other parts of the city. That part of town could use a cultural magnet.

[SpectralMourning]

The Oklahoma School of Design (or Oklahoma City School of Design, whichever) should be an incorporation into OCU. It should definitely be built in Midtown to establish a firm link between the 23rd Corridor and Midtown. A building like Hadden Hall in Midtown would be pretty cool for a smaller design school, but OCU might need larger. OCU should also seek to establish a school in the non-Class A office space in the CBD to fill all vacancies possible with campus and student housing.

A 30,000 student university is a completely asinine plan. This and the ODOT capers can seriously hurt Oklahoma City and Oklahoma in general. The space where the university would be located is extremely prime real estate, and I don't think it's realized as such. If anything, the area would be best served by doubling the size of Bricktown in the lot, this time with the hope that the idiots that own most of the land in Bricktown wouldn't take up further adventures in this area. The canal extension would be perfect to serve this area and to give the canal a purpose.

South of this location, they need to get back on track with creating more high rise office development. A mini business district that could attain a New York feel to it through density of the high rises. I know that will never happen, but a guy can dream.

I'm highly disappointed with the recent design plans released by the city. The whole project feels more suburban than anything. It amazes me that any of them even came up with this presentation considering everyones' "pro urban" stance. What happened?

As for Roosevelt Square, I think it's a fantastic idea. I think a postmodern Roman Forum would best fit the bill for any kind of park space in the area. This could be tied into Orza's mass festivals ideas. Any other day, it could serve as the city's meeting place.

As I've said in another forum, this latest proposal is filled with amateur ideas. It does have a few great ideas, such as the amphitheater south of the river, but overall it falls flat. This "installment" should be scrapped in favor of the earlier proposals and much of the essentials should be moved north into downtown where it could really do some good.

[jbrown84]

Millenium Park is another good model, although I don't care for the naming things after Chase, Boeing, and SBC.

I'm with you Spectral on being disappointed with these designs. Cornett wants us to dream big and I guess they are with the college idea, but where's the high rise residential?? Build up and then we can dedicate more land to the park. And there is no place for SINGLE FAMILY HOUSING in this area. Really.

[Watson410]

Can someone please explain to me why we need to build ANOTHER university on such a prime piece of land?!?! OCU is only 2 miles north.. Just because it's not downtown doesn't mean it can't be Oklahoma City's university..Last I heard OCU was working on getting back in the NCAA, Why would we need 2 NCAA schools in OKC? I've been looking at a few concept drawings for that area, and that idea is just absurd. Surely OKC can think of something alot better for that area. I like the high rise residential idea....maybe extend the canal...build the high rise on the canal. I don't know, i just think that would be a better start than another university.

[Theo Walcott]

Well the idea of it being an extension of OCU or another university would be an interesting prospect.

Another potential idea could be to incorporate an extension of OCU or OU as a School of Hotel and Restaurant management that would operate out of a hotel that would be inside my stadium idea from the other thread. The school would be ultimately responsible for overseeing the operation of both the hotel and all restaurant-related activities inside the stadium. Just an idea, but perhaps a useful one at that.

[BG918]

What are your thoughts on moving OSU-OKC's campus to this area south of Bricktown and merging it with a "central" OCCC, like how in Tulsa they have a flagship downtown TCC campus as well as campuses in north, south, and west Tulsa. Also include a design school, culinary school, etc. and create large areas of affordable housing for these students in the areas along the river as outlined in the plan.

[Theo Walcott]

I think that's a pretty solid idea. However, as the Hotel and Restaurant Management school in Stillwater is top notch, they may be hesitant to provide similar such offerings in OKC. Not sure though.

[jbrown84]

We definitely don't need a community college/tech-school downtown. If it's not a liberal arts school, then just scrap the idea.